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China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

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Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#101

Post by auganov »

tgb wrote: post #28
arnmac wrote: post #4

And they also supposedly only have 93k confirmed COVID cases. Not sure I believe this.

While I share your skepticism, there doesn't seem to be much room for cover-up here (though I'm sure the initial outbreak was significantly under-counted). My understanding is that restrictions are pretty minimal apart from strict control of travelers. So either there is basically no community spread or it's likely to be rampant - and then the hospitals would be overflowing like they are in the US, which is much much…

In general I agree, it's pretty unlikely that China is anywhere in the top 10 per capita, but there's still a lot of room for a cover up.

It could very well be that China chose to sweep it under the rug and has many more people dying than reported. But the number could still be perfectly average, which is not that much. And perhaps below since most of SE Asia seems to be doing very well regardless of policy. China could have 50 times the per capita death rate and would still be below average.

Certain wards are overflowing, hospitals as a whole aren't. Many if not most didn't have that much excess mortality. Not hard to cover up at all by simply not admitting people and/or providing sub-optimal care (in which case you'd have much more effective capacity).

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#102

Post by trianglem »

true_religion wrote: post #64
rattoot22 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While those camps are not ideal, they don't detract from the achievement of lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty in a few decades.

This is like saying Jim Crow didn’t detract from America’s achievements in the 1950s, and 60s. Anyone who suffers oppression, just will see these achievements as adding insult to injury.

That’s a really good analogy. Hmm I’m torn.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#103

Post by dzonga »

bennysonething wrote: post #85
dzonga wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lifting a billion people out of poverty, would be a big achievment in terms of economic planning, logistics and resource planning. those are no small tasks. also while maintaining social integrity. yeah, the ccp takes away a lot of freedoms, but how would you do maintain a cohesive society ?

Why is would a cohesive society require removing freedoms? In fact that west has shown this needn't be the case.

has the west shown this is the case ? or it's an illusion of freedom ? here in the US, people vote and elect officials etc. But to those officials pass laws that help the people ? hardly so, but instead pass laws that benefit corporations firstly over human people. As a black person, I can speak up against mass incarceration, but do I have power to end it, NO. That's the illusion of freedom. It's the illusion that all men are equal under law, but we know the law treats you differently based on wealth, skin color etc.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#104

Post by blackrock »

baybal2 wrote: post #96
jbrun wrote: post #31

Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.

> I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history And you forget to say that the amount of people verged into absolute poverty by CPC is also the biggest shame of human history. Nowhere else in history few hundred million people verge forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewh…

You don’t think the British and the Americans had any blame for this? For why China was so poor, and had to dig themselves out of a hole in the ground?

After all, the criminal British Empire made their fortunes, by shoving opium down the throats of the Chinese for 100 freaking years!

And then Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who never had a job his entire life, and just one day became the American president, well, where did his family get their money from? Yes, that’s right. Opium. The Delano’s were also the biggest American drug smugglers during the opium era. And yes, when the Americans were talking about trading success with the Asians, they were specifically referring to opium, but they were too ashamed to admit it.

The Chinese opium era was the greatest theft, and the greatest transfer of wealth in human history!

Google it man. Educate yourself about the sins of the British and American empires.

At least after the CPC and Mao came into power in China, they finally eliminated the opium scourge, and kicked out the British dickheads from their country (except for Hong Kong).

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#105

Post by brnt »

dumb1224 wrote: post #100
jbrun wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clarification: I meant rule of law broadly speaking as a human invention (like science and medicine), not specific to China. Sorry for the confusion.

One of my high school friends has become a judge in my hometown (fulfilling his dream), and they are actually a team specialising in dealing with cases against local authorities[0]. I exchange conversation with him about all kinds of societal issues. I don't know how it can represent everywhere in China but I understand that the legal system has improved massively comparing with decades ago. In major cities most civi…

There is no separation of powers in China and therefore there is no rule of law. In theory the Party's congress could enforce a defacto independent judiciary, but the evidence is of course that they don't, they are the biggest theatrical production not called that.

If that wasn't enough you could trivially look up how many lawyers end up imprisoned or worse.

It's not even a bit silly to argue China has anything near a working legal system, it absolutely doesn't.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#106

Post by baybal2 »

blackrock wrote: post #104
baybal2 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history And you forget to say that the amount of people verged into absolute poverty by CPC is also the biggest shame of human history. Nowhere else in history few hundred million people verge forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewh…

You don’t think the British and the Americans had any blame for this? For why China was so poor, and had to dig themselves out of a hole in the ground? After all, the criminal British Empire made their fortunes, by shoving opium down the throats of the Chinese for 100 freaking years! And then Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who never had a job his entire life, and just one day became the American president, well, where di…

> At least after the CPC and Mao came into power in China, they finally eliminated the opium scourge, and kicked out the British dickheads from their country (except for Hong Kong).

And then, he killed, and starved 60m of his countrymen.

How many English killed, and how many Mao killed.

I feel, you are under influence of Maoism.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#107

Post by blackrock »

baybal2 wrote: post #106
blackrock wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t think the British and the Americans had any blame for this? For why China was so poor, and had to dig themselves out of a hole in the ground? After all, the criminal British Empire made their fortunes, by shoving opium down the throats of the Chinese for 100 freaking years! And then Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who never had a job his entire life, and just one day became the American president, well, where di…

> At least after the CPC and Mao came into power in China, they finally eliminated the opium scourge, and kicked out the British dickheads from their country (except for Hong Kong). And then, he killed, and starved 60m of his countrymen. How many English killed, and how many Mao killed. I feel, you are under influence of Maoism.

Getting personal huh?

I feel, you are under the influence of moronism. You just cannot see the bigger picture and connect the dots. Even though it’s right in front of your face.

If the British and Americans did not do what they did in the 1840s, then do you think someone like Mao would’ve come into power in the 1900s?

Were you also aware that China was under heavy sanctions from the United States, Australia, and the rest of the world after the CPC came into power? They could not buy food from abroad, since the white countries wanted to starve them to death. They could not trade to make money from their commodities. The ultimate goal of the white western nations was to starve China (but let’s not talk about any of that, because that would disrupt our brainwashing of the masses).

The British subsequently killed more people than Mao, because they set into motion a series of disastrous events.

Did you even realize China had a civil war in the 1850s, because of the British?

But of course, let’s ignore everything else, and focus our attention on Mao, since he’s an easy target. And forget about everything else that led up to him.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#108

Post by dirtyid »

baybal2 wrote: post #96
jbrun wrote: post #31

Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.

> I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history And you forget to say that the amount of people verged into absolute poverty by CPC is also the biggest shame of human history. Nowhere else in history few hundred million people verge forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewh…

In context of a stacked deck: century of colonial ravaging, postswar destruction and western bloc containment, the CCP had the ambition to pursue rejuvenation over stagnation and prevented the historic pattern of collapse and fragmentation. Of course there was incredible human costs, but on balance the right decisions were made. IMO Mao was more than 30% bad, but he maintained territorial integrity and the conditions for PRC to thrive. The generation he fucked over have nothing to be thankful for, but the generations that came after does, 30% bad is going to shrink with each year as Chinese comprehensive power grows. CCP today is not the same as CCP from 50 years ago, even if ideology seems to be once again converging. With exception of nuclear war, increasing comprehensive power will insulate the cost of making mistakes. There's simply more resources and tools for "harmonious" governance now, the soldiers that shot students because they didn't have access to riot gear is not going to need bullets when they have access to lethal alternatives, if social credit even allows situations to devolve that far in the first place. At the end of the day, CCP build modern China to credibly deter against external forces, situation is still far from good for many, but it's better than what most (arguably all other) countries could accomplish, and considering sheer Chinese scale, many Chinese are thankful for the outcome. Even the ones who fled and continues to flee with their wealth. There's something to be said for building indigenous nuclear, space and military program in the face of western sanctions, while simultaneously uplifting coastal populace in per capita GDP/PPP to rival the aggregate wealth and living standards of fellow developed Asian countries who got to where they are with US assistance.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#109

Post by dumb1224 »

brnt wrote: post #105
dumb1224 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my high school friends has become a judge in my hometown (fulfilling his dream), and they are actually a team specialising in dealing with cases against local authorities[0]. I exchange conversation with him about all kinds of societal issues. I don't know how it can represent everywhere in China but I understand that the legal system has improved massively comparing with decades ago. In major cities most civi…

There is no separation of powers in China and therefore there is no rule of law. In theory the Party's congress could enforce a defacto independent judiciary, but the evidence is of course that they don't, they are the biggest theatrical production not called that. If that wasn't enough you could trivially look up how many lawyers end up imprisoned or worse. It's not even a bit silly to argue China has anything near…

I'm talking about lower courts such as county/city courts that deal with all local level proceedings. They function just as English magistrates/county courts. I'm not sure how the separation of power has anything to do with these local judiciary. If you talk about corruption that's a different issue.

For me if these courts are exercising their judicial power legally and properly then we at least have a working civil legal system (not 'none'). There are unfair cases with international concerns but it's not unique to China. I don't think a majority of the local courts in China are malfunctioning or abusing power. If you have evidence to back your claim up I'm happy to read that.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#110

Post by baybal2 »

dirtyid wrote: post #108
baybal2 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history And you forget to say that the amount of people verged into absolute poverty by CPC is also the biggest shame of human history. Nowhere else in history few hundred million people verge forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewh…

In context of a stacked deck: century of colonial ravaging, postswar destruction and western bloc containment, the CCP had the ambition to pursue rejuvenation over stagnation and prevented the historic pattern of collapse and fragmentation. Of course there was incredible human costs, but on balance the right decisions were made. IMO Mao was more than 30% bad, but he maintained territorial integrity and the conditions…

> IMO Mao was more than 30% bad, but he maintained territorial integrity and the conditions for PRC to thrive

And ceded 1m+ square kilometres to USSR.

> The generation he fucked over have nothing to be thankful for, but the generations that came after does, 30% bad is going to shrink with each year as Chinese comprehensive power grows

Unless the country is not steered back into the abyss, which is seemingly is the case. They blew it all.

> China to credibly deter against external forces, situation is still far from good for many, but it's better than what most countries could accomplish, and considering sheer Chinese scale, many Chinese are thankful for the outcome.

Every Chinese citizen I know, hates the party with deep, deep passion, and that includes not so few party members themselves.

> CCP build modern China to credibly deter against external forces

You have to really turn on the TV.

I feel, you are in denial of objective reality under influence of virulent Xiism.

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