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China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

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Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t think the British and the Americans had any blame for this? For why China was so poor, and had to dig themselves out of a hole in the ground? After all, the criminal British Empire made their fortunes, by shoving opium down the throats of the Chinese for 100 freaking years! And then Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who never had a job his entire life, and just one day became the American president, well, where di…

> At least after the CPC and Mao came into power in China, they finally eliminated the opium scourge, and kicked out the British dickheads from their country (except for Hong Kong). And then, he killed, and starved 60m of his countrymen. How many English killed, and how many Mao killed. I feel, you are under influence of Maoism.

If you are referring to the Great Leap Forward, here's what Britannica says of its causes: poor planning + natural disasters. Sorry, there is no moral comparison between them. Mao "killed" millions of his countrymen in the same sense in which Trump did via his poor Covid response.

> Under the commune system, agricultural and political decisions were decentralized, and ideological purity rather than expertise was emphasized. The peasants were organized into brigade teams, and communal kitchens were established so that women could be freed for work. The program was implemented with such haste by overzealous cadres that implements were often melted to make steel in the backyard furnaces, and many farm animals were slaughtered by discontented peasants. These errors in implementation were made worse by a series of natural disasters and the withdrawal of Soviet support. The inefficiency of the communes and the large-scale diversion of farm labour into small-scale industry disrupted China's agriculture seriously, and three consecutive years of natural calamities added to what quickly turned into a national disaster; in all, about 20 million people were estimated to have died of starvation between 1959 and 1962.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#112
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I share your skepticism, there doesn't seem to be much room for cover-up here (though I'm sure the initial outbreak was significantly under-counted). My understanding is that restrictions are pretty minimal apart from strict control of travelers. So either there is basically no community spread or it's likely to be rampant - and then the hospitals would be overflowing like they are in the US, which is much much…

In general I agree, it's pretty unlikely that China is anywhere in the top 10 per capita, but there's still a lot of room for a cover up. It could very well be that China chose to sweep it under the rug and has many more people dying than reported. But the number could still be perfectly average, which is not that much. And perhaps below since most of SE Asia seems to be doing very well regardless of policy. China co…

> Not hard to cover up at all by simply not admitting people and/or providing sub-optimal care (in which case you'd have much more effective capacity).

That would create a lot of angry people who'll complain that the ward is overwhelmed, which would be counterproductive if the goal is to hide a huge case load while claiming zero local infections.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#113
post #95
post #31

Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.

So far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time), and that left us fall behind the world economically. And the latter so-called "lifted out of poverty" (a oftenly used propaganda tune in Chinese spokesmen to refute others' human rights infringement bl…

>So far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time

How do you explain Poverty of India then? It doesn't suffer from one person in power.

India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empire

Lifting that many people out of poverty is nothing sort of a miracle

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In context of a stacked deck: century of colonial ravaging, postswar destruction and western bloc containment, the CCP had the ambition to pursue rejuvenation over stagnation and prevented the historic pattern of collapse and fragmentation. Of course there was incredible human costs, but on balance the right decisions were made. IMO Mao was more than 30% bad, but he maintained territorial integrity and the conditions…

> IMO Mao was more than 30% bad, but he maintained territorial integrity and the conditions for PRC to thrive And ceded 1m+ square kilometres to USSR. > The generation he fucked over have nothing to be thankful for, but the generations that came after does, 30% bad is going to shrink with each year as Chinese comprehensive power grows Unless the country is not steered back into the abyss, which is seemingly is the ca…

Yes, the CCP ceded land in majority of border settlements, but core interests were preserved. Relatively minor cost for actually mitigating external frictions seeing as how the only remaining land border India/Bhutan is causing so much shit show now not to mention SCS disputes. Or China would be in a better position had they not acceded to Mongolian independence.

>hates the party with deep, deep passion

I mean... what else is new? Not many countries with widespread support for their government, especially now, times are hard for almost everyone, everywhere. Citizens in multiparty systems hate their politicians too, they just also happen to hate rival parties more. Modernity + capitalism is stressful, personally preferable stress than being subsistence farmers. Maybe some prefer if China was contained and stagnant in an agrarian society. Most of my extended family hates the CCP, lost everything during cultural revolution. Some got fucked again during Xi's corruption crack downs. More lament at their kids future because competing in the world's largest country isn't easy. Most of them could also sell their tier1 city condos and retire comfortably in any western country as millionaires. These are people who benefited enormously from the system. People aren't rational.

>virulent Xiism

I wasn't a fan of Xi, but he inherited unfavorable geopolitical conditions and in retrospect seized the right opportunities. US pivoted to Asia before him, the relationship was always going to devolve into competition. Hide and bide was on last legs, and Trump didn't help with setting new truculence. They managed situation OK considering how this wildcard US admin was stacked with China Hawks. Pompeo isn't sailing carriers groups through the Taiwan Strait anymore, and the weapons sales are a pittance compared to the 90s.

>They blew it all

US anxiety and to rise of China threat was always going to be triggered by a combination of Chinese economy eclipsing US and scale of Chinese military buildup commiserate with 14T economy. It's inevitable. But economy and military reformed are basically at a level of appropriate competitiveness and regional deterrence to address shifting US foreign policy. Maybe another few years would help with the IC / turbojet situation, but US was cracking down on MIC2025 since Obama. 20 years ago, Chinese hated the government, worshipped the west, and couldn't dream of a world outside of western hegemony. Now they're somewhat confident about the government and recognize the west are not untouchable. Hate + confidence is an improvement. I didn't think I'd live to see the day where comfy Chinese diaspora in the west or international students want to go back, but those conversations are happening.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#116
post #31

Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.

You know what else is a great achievement? The very cool concentration camps chilling in Xinjiang.

The Japanese Concentration Camps of America was pretty cool too.

Just saying.

Note: I meant this as sarcasm, if you didn’t catch my tone.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#117
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time), and that left us fall behind the world economically. And the latter so-called "lifted out of poverty" (a oftenly used propaganda tune in Chinese spokesmen to refute others' human rights infringement bl…

>So far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time How do you explain Poverty of India then? It doesn't suffer from one person in power. India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empi…

> India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empire

Any source for your claims?

The truth:

India population in 1800: 169 million [0]

China population in 1800: 322 million (nearly double India’s)

As for GDP:

China’s GDP (PPP) per capita in 1800: $316K [1]

India’s GDP (PPP) per capita in 1800: $177K

Note this is per capita. Factoring in the population difference, China’s overall GDP (PPP) was almost 4 times that of India. Hardly “roughly equal”.

I’m using 1800 as a reference year since it’s easier to find data for it.

And GDP (PPP) in 1980 (IMF estimates): [2]

China’s GDP (PPP) in 1980: $305K

India’s GDP (PPP) in 1980: $381K

India’s GDP in 1980 actually surpassed China: 4-5 times growth compared to China! (from 1800 to 1980)

This proves the grandparent comment that “IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time”.

India’s population growth nearly doubles China’s (from 1800 to now) . Not surprising that, on average, more Indians are poorer than Chinese.

[0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-population-race-a-300-y...

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-2nqd6-ZXg

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_...

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t think the British and the Americans had any blame for this? For why China was so poor, and had to dig themselves out of a hole in the ground? After all, the criminal British Empire made their fortunes, by shoving opium down the throats of the Chinese for 100 freaking years! And then Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who never had a job his entire life, and just one day became the American president, well, where di…

> At least after the CPC and Mao came into power in China, they finally eliminated the opium scourge, and kicked out the British dickheads from their country (except for Hong Kong). And then, he killed, and starved 60m of his countrymen. How many English killed, and how many Mao killed. I feel, you are under influence of Maoism.

Why didn’t this guy’s comment get flagged? While my counter-reply did get flagged.

He’s accusing anyone that doesn’t see things the same way he does, as being brainwashed.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#119
post #31

Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.

[deleted]

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#120
The article is ridiculous.

Governors were given poverty targets that had to be met, so they just sent in reports that everything was good to avoid losing their jobs.

The reality is that:

1) Many peasants (ie. half the Chinese population) don't have enough money to plant their next crop

2) And thanks to the natural disasters in 2020, they never will.

From Xi's Maoist perspective, that's a good thing - less mouths to feed.

Oh, and HN posters: stop being useful idiots:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

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