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NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

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Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#151

Post by elmo2you »

ignasl wrote: post #124
jmnicolas wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Come on stop spreading this dumb western propaganda, Russia isn't threatening anybody in western Europe. They took Crimea back and sabotaged Ukraine because strategically they can't afford to have yet another NATO country right at their doorstep. They're not going to invade Poland any time soon (what for anyway?). They're not crazy nor blood thirsty. This…

They won't invade Poland or Baltics because those countries are in NATO and EU and it's way too risky. Russia seems pretty involved in all the hotspots lately including starting a war in Ukraine. Very likely same fate would be for Poland and Baltics if they didn't protect themselves with stronger allies. And even if current Russia is not interested/capable to cause trouble to east EU - that doesn't mean it won't chan…

In case you didn't get that memo: the shit in the Ukraine didn't start with Russian involvement.

It started with very active meddling, spending copious amounts of money, into the internal politics of the country. It should also be noted that much of that money went to ultra-right-wing militant organizations, who have zero respect for democracy or freedom. Essentially, the USA bought itself a (fascist) private army to take control (or at least try to) over the natural resources in East Ukraine and Crimea. Russia responded rather predictably to that.

Some might even argue that they had every right to do so. I'd love to see Americans react, if Russia were to sponsor some kind of anti-US militia in Alaska, that would subsequently take control of state (military bases with missile launch facilities included). I'm pretty sure that US citizens would call that for what it is: an act of aggression.

No, the reason Russia doesn't invade Poland or the Baltic countries isn't because of NATO. Ironically, if those countries are at risk in any way, it's probably rather because of NATO. NATO (and its members) keeps insisting that the organization is defensive in nature only, yet its actions tell a rather different story (and it has done so for a long time, at least since the '90).

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#152

Post by avar »

toyg wrote: post #99
thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

Denmark is somewhat more reliant on the US than the average European country because of Greenland. Eastern countries like Poland are similarly beholden to NATO because Russia is an immediate threat for them. Everyone else is basically just lazy: relying on the Americans saves us a lot of money and effort that European public opinion is unwilling to spend. This allows e.g. France to play “Africa’s cop” to prop up thei…

> Trump was the first but won’t be the last US president pushing for disengagement from the Old World[...]

It was Obama who started pushing for the 2% policy and got NATO countries to agree to ramp spending up to that before 2024[1].

Before that there's been decades of the US trying to push Europe to take defense spending more seriously.

Trump's had more juvenile rhetoric on the issue, but he fundamentally wasn't saying anything to NATO or enacting any policies that Obama pursuing before him.

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/27/world/europe/europe-begin...

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#153

Post by colechristensen »

elmo2you wrote: post #139
thefounder wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Russia already anexed Crimea and is fighting a proxy war in Ukraine. You may not find Ukraine enough European for you to count. Next: other Eastern European countries. Next: the baltic countries.

> Well Russia already annexed Crimea .. Yet another show of either (willful) ignorance or (intentional) peddling of (Western) propaganda. People may think whatever they want about what happened to Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, but to called that an annexation (or an invasion, as many have) is disingenuous as best. It's no secret (in fact, it's on public record) that it was the USA who pumped copious amounts of money in…

If one thing is clear, it is that in the events surrounding the crimean annexation, everyone was the asshole.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#154

Post by mrweasel »

hestefisk wrote: post #61

I’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against…

What I don't get is why the US doesn't just ask the questions they would like to have answered. In most cases our politicians would pretty much just tell them what they need to know.

In the case of the F35 it especially make no sense, AT ALL. The selection process for a new fighter jet was so heavily skewed in favor of the F35 that other manufacturers didn't even want to bid. At no point did anyone seriously believe that any other plane was even an option.

It's my belief that letting the NSA do their spying is a move done to ensure that our own politicians cannot be held responsible for informing the US about internal affairs. As you say, they show a complete apathy towards the situation.

The current generation of politicians has an unhealthy positive view of surveillance in general, while attempting to keep the press and public out from anything they deem to be "confidential government decisions".

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#155

Post by nix23 »

goatinaboat wrote: post #125
throwaway4good wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. It depends on the theatre. At sea, probably, in a nuclear exchange France has sufficient deterrent capability. But in a land war, tank on tank the way God meant it to be, France’s 200 tanks are no match for Russia’s thousands. Remember purchasing power parity. Russia may be poorer than France, but it’s stuff costs a lot less too.

>tank on tank the way God meant it to be

Tanks are not used for that anymore, they are used as little fortresses in cities, but fighting on a open field..well you have seen what happened in the first and second iraq war.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#156

Post by saiya-jin »

toyg wrote: post #99
thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

Denmark is somewhat more reliant on the US than the average European country because of Greenland. Eastern countries like Poland are similarly beholden to NATO because Russia is an immediate threat for them. Everyone else is basically just lazy: relying on the Americans saves us a lot of money and effort that European public opinion is unwilling to spend. This allows e.g. France to play “Africa’s cop” to prop up thei…

Good point - as an european, I see for example Turkey as much bigger threat currently compared to Russia. They are aggressive as hell, directly (Syria, Greece, semi-open support of ISIS in the region) and indirectly (ie Karabach). Putin will be gone one day, and the idea that somebody more like Erdogan would be leading Russia gives me goosebumps.

You don't have to project power to distant places only directly via supercarriers and local military bases, various subversions can get you pretty far.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#157

Post by RobertoG »

cturner wrote: post #103
thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum. Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of musc…

>>"chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations [..]"

This is a list of military spending by country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_...

If you count only France and Germany they spend already more than Russia. The European Union together spend more money in defense that any other country in the world except the USA (and around the same that China).

So, what's the reason for demanding more spending?

Recently, there was a decision to increase spending at the European level, but the project was to spend it in local industry instead of buying the weapons to the Americans. The pentagon reacted really offended (1).

This "you should spend more in defense" is not about defense, it's about money, and where that money goes.

I think a better question that why the Europeans don't spend more in "defense", it's: why the Americans spend so much?

(1) - https://breakingdefense.com/2019/11/pentagon-nato-warn-europ...

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#158

Post by boomboomsubban »

coldtea wrote: post #105
thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

If we don't frame things as countries needing to ally with the US out of fear of Russia\China, we may have to realize that countries are forced to ally with the US as the ones that don't end up overthrown or facing endless economic warfare like Venezuela/Iran.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#159

Post by Dahoon »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #150
elmo2you wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well Russia already annexed Crimea .. Yet another show of either (willful) ignorance or (intentional) peddling of (Western) propaganda. People may think whatever they want about what happened to Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, but to called that an annexation (or an invasion, as many have) is disingenuous as best. It's no secret (in fact, it's on public record) that it was the USA who pumped copious amounts of money in…

It was an invasion and annexation according to international law. That is crystal clear and there is not even any leeway for interpretation about it. On a side note, the kind of justifications / rationalization you give for the annexation - somebody installed politicians there that were not pleasing Russia enough - are not only factually incorrect, too, they are also irrelevant to the question whether the Crimea was…

Your comment reads like you only read the first sentence. Nothing you said disproves the facts he stated.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#160

Post by nix23 »

ignasl wrote: post #124
jmnicolas wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Come on stop spreading this dumb western propaganda, Russia isn't threatening anybody in western Europe. They took Crimea back and sabotaged Ukraine because strategically they can't afford to have yet another NATO country right at their doorstep. They're not going to invade Poland any time soon (what for anyway?). They're not crazy nor blood thirsty. This…

They won't invade Poland or Baltics because those countries are in NATO and EU and it's way too risky. Russia seems pretty involved in all the hotspots lately including starting a war in Ukraine. Very likely same fate would be for Poland and Baltics if they didn't protect themselves with stronger allies. And even if current Russia is not interested/capable to cause trouble to east EU - that doesn't mean it won't chan…

>Russia seems pretty involved in all the hotspots lately including starting a war in Ukraine

Yeah and stop d one in armenia.

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