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Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

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Re: Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

#271

Post by elcritch »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #266
dnautics wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair elixir has slowly become more and more static over time, as in via convention and tooling.

Even at the language level, every single variable is a constant—the opposite of "hyper dynamic".

The larger design patterns build on that immutability on the local level. Inheriting the design patterns from Erlang/OTP also make larger programs much more feasible. I can be away from a piece of Elixir code for months and come back and the structure is usually pretty straightforward to pick up again. Primarily due to supervisor hierarchies combined with the lack of weird OOP hierarchies and entanglement.

Re: Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

#272

Post by fsloth »

iainctduncan wrote: post #270
ma2rten wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you make technical decisions based on what hyponthenictal new owners would prefer in a hyponthenictal acquisition in 5 years?

Because that's how founders make money. The vast majority of exits now are purchases by private equity firms, and they will do a thorough technical due diligence and look at those decisions and what it will take to run the company the way they want to. (I do those diligences for a living) If you're doing a tiny lifestyle company with no exit plan, you wouldn't. Which ironically, is exactly what I'm doing on my own ti…

Most exits are purchases by private equity? I had no idea - are there any references for that available?

Re: Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

#273

Post by AnimalMuppet »

iainctduncan wrote: post #104

I was a total raving Python evangelist for the first 12 years of my coding career, and then got a job as the CTO for a Python based startup that had been running absent a technical leader for 5 years, with relatively junior coders making all the decisions. I still love Python, but I now have a completely different attitude to hyper-dynamic languages (like Python, Ruby, Clojure, Elixir, etc). In my new opinion, they a…

On a large software team, about half the programmers are below the industry-wide average. Sure, you can carefully build a team of 10 where they're all above average. I've even seen a team of 30 where most were above average, and none were clearly below. But a team of 100? That's a lot harder.

This has serious implications for how you develop large systems. Don't try to get too sophisticated on a larger or longer-lasting project. You'll have people on it who won't' be able to play at that level, and if you try to make them, they'll make a mess.

The same thing happens over time. Sure, your team is only 20 people... today. But if the program lives for three decades, how many people will work on it? 100? Will they all be superstars? Even those maintenance people you hire 20 years from now? Probably not.

Re: Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

#274

Post by bsder »

chaostheory wrote: post #198
iainctduncan wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually found it was untraceable side effects from imports and ability to monkey patch that was worse. Related to the typing, but not totally the same. I would pick something like Clojure or F# now to control that. Side effects and coupling.

Didn't realize that monkey patching wasn't only limited to Ruby.

It tends to be frowned on in Python. Mostly because some fairly popular projects did it first, and if you monkey patch over them, you break them.

Consequently, there was a big disincentive to monkeypatching.

Re: Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

#275

Post by dunefox »

coolspot wrote: post #231
knodi wrote: post #67

I don't know why in today's day and age people switch to Python, the python version bumps is such a wreck. Pip and Pipenv are 10 years behind the eco system. so many other better langs out there that are more uniform.

Because all ML and data tools are written by scientists in Python: PyTorch, TensorFlow

In C/C++/Fortran and imported by Python rather.

Re: Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

#276

Post by bpyne »

Python is an excellent teaching language. It's simple to install. You follow a tutorial by typing something at the REPL and it gives you results. Learning stuff like importing modules, etc. happens as your coding ambitions increase.

Something else to consider is the Python shell at python.org/shell. Students often have Chromebooks. I'm about to mentor second year high school students who are interested in CS. Several of them have Chromebooks only. I can recommend Python and point them to the shell.

I would think Python got a good bump through Hour of Code and other programs to introduce people to coding.

Re: Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

#277

Post by mixmastamyk »

Barrin92 wrote: post #193
taffer wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just about every larger company has an IT department where people write business or web applications. But not every larger company has people programming embedded systems. The TIOBE index simply does not reflect reality.

Every car, every industrial machine, every rocket, plane and tractor as well as the entire stack that your web applications run on in the cloud, the operating system, the infrastructure have significant parts written in C or C++. I think you need to take into account that the world of software extends beyond web applications and white collar services.

I think what they're saying is that applications are an order of magnitude more numerous than infrastructure software. Sounds plausible to me.

Re: Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

#278

Post by aprdm »

smt88 wrote: post #238
aprdm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you so certain it is far from #1 in web? Django is massively popular as is flask.

No estimate is perfect, but PHP is far and away #1 because of WordPress. Here are some stats that you could and should take with a grain of salt: https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_langua... My anecdata also says neither Django nor Flask are very populate. I have yet to encounter either one already in use by a client. Rails is also rare. I think scrappy startup frameworks are a different population…

Interesting how experiences can be different. I have worked in F100 companies and startups and saw a lot of Django/Flask :), Bank of America was hiring flask devs like crazy back in the UK.

Re: Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

#279

Post by outworlder »

hota_mazi wrote: post #216
iainctduncan wrote: post #104

I was a total raving Python evangelist for the first 12 years of my coding career, and then got a job as the CTO for a Python based startup that had been running absent a technical leader for 5 years, with relatively junior coders making all the decisions. I still love Python, but I now have a completely different attitude to hyper-dynamic languages (like Python, Ruby, Clojure, Elixir, etc). In my new opinion, they a…

> Sure, this is a problem of people, not language. I don't think so. It is a problem of language. Or more specifically, of dynamically typed languages (DTL) vs/ statically typed ones (STL). We know for a fact now that DTL's simply don't scale to large code bases. And before dozens of people tell me there are a lot of large apps written in DTL, this doesn't mean it was a good idea in the first place nor that these lar…

> We know for a fact now that DTL's simply don't scale to large code bases.

We don't know that. This is not a fact.

Re: Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language

#280

Post by imcoconut »

ericvsmith wrote: post #81
kzrdude wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this is the example where dataclasses could have supported __slots__ better with a metaclass? Thanks for working on dataclasses :) - as I said, it's my #1 new feature in Python.

Maybe that would have worked better with a metaclass. But still, I think not using a metaclass is the more flexible design. Maybe I'll add the "add_slots" behavior into the @dataclass decorator in 3.10, even though it would need to return a new class. At least it could be well documented, and I doubt it's a concern for most people. > Thanks for working on dataclasses :) - as I said, it's my #1 new feature in Python.…

fstrings and datclasses changed my life. thank you :)
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