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DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

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121–130 of 150 posts

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#122
post #40

It also seems to combine the worst of both platforms: Apps. Is there any OSDEV work that goes towards a more integrated, component-based architecture? As sad as it seems, Unix tools & pipes seems to be the most successful and enduring attempt in that direction. Systems doing that on a language basis seem mostly dead (Lisps, Smalltalks, Oberons), component architecture isn't doing much (OpenDoc as the prime example, C…

What if unix style pipes included a MIME type. Thus you might have some type safety, or ability to understand multiple types of input.

Example: if one tool outputs JSON, another tool, like grep, would recognize that is a subtype TEXT, and be able to process it.

Example: a more sophisticated hypothetical grep tool, would recognize that it might grep JSON differently than it greps TEXT.

Example: Tool 1 exporting JPEG might be incompatible with Tool 2 that only accepts JSON. A nice shell error message could result.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#123
post #58
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's perfectly understandable, I even feel that I went a little too "slick marketing" with the website, but I have extremely high, maybe even too high goals for the project.

Having high aspirations for your rock band is perfectly fine, but designing the album cover and the poster for the world tour when you only play some covers from other bands is probably not the best way to make yourself a name in the scene. I don't know your project in particular so I don't know if this is what you are doing, but I agree with ploxiln in that it is a general trend nowadays.

It does seem to be a trend nowdays. I think the most fitting analogy to what we are doing is "Desigining the album cover for the world tour, when we only have a few songs for it." It most definitely is a little overerpresented on the website, but i'd say the goals and features are completely attainable, they are represented to be high when they are really standard features that are relatively easy to implement.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everything is just run as a canvas then you also loose everything that is good about a platform like accessibility, index-ability (at least on the web), integration with platform tools like copy, selecting text and so, so much more. I can see canvas rendering as a good target for games and for individual components such as a drawing surface or a chart but using it for a whole app is just throwing out the baby with…

Flutter on the web is more complicated than just a canvas element. The project has a fair amount of effort put into a11y on mobile; I’d be really surprised if the web output isn’t also accessible.

Picking the first demo on https://gallery.flutter.dev : https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/reply

It seems like it renders text via a SVG on top of a canvas layer that is the background, so that's a plus for a11y. As for the downsides, and I'm not sure how much this is due to flutter or the app itself:

* I can't use the browser search for elements outside the viewport

* I can't select text at all

* I can't tab through elements/links at all (which is often seen as a strong indicator of bad a11y)

* Browser back/forward do not work as expected (back exits the app completely, and then forward does not bring me back)

The second demo there: https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/shrine

* All the same as the first one, but also clickable elements do not give me any feedback that they are clickable (hand-pointer cursour or any underline/similar effect)

---

Maybe these are just demos that have not thought of these specific things but since it is a web showcase of a framework meant to work on the web (although not exclusively) and these were the first links up there it's a bit disappointing.

My point is that you get most of these things for free (or easy) on the normal web, but flutter seems to try to patch them back onto it instead of using what is there.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#125
post #120
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odd how well rust seems to manage to avoid them. C was amazing when it was introduced, but is as archaic as COBOL today. We are stuck with it because of legacy.

>"C was amazing when it was introduced" It was not amazing. It was decent particular tool for particular job. That was all about it. Same thing about Rust. There are no silver bullets laying around.

Whether you want to say it was amazing or not, it’s a legacy tool now.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#126
post #114
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are needed for the tasks C was made to handle: complete control over everything being a primary one. If you do not need those tasks you do not need C. And if you do then get used to it.

Odd how well rust seems to manage to avoid them. C was amazing when it was introduced, but is as archaic as COBOL today. We are stuck with it because of legacy.

Amazing only to those that never looked outside Bell Labs.

Amazing was what Burroughs was doing in 1961, 10 years before C came to be, IBM RISC research in PL/S and PL.8, VAX/VMS stuff in BLISS, Solo OS in Concurrent Pascal, Xerox XDE in Mesa, ....

Those were amazing in the 60's and mid-70's.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#127

Sorry I don't get the USP of this. Can someone explain what's the best of both worlds that is being offered here? Thanks!

To me this looks like the worst of both worlds. Poor UI choice, poor apps and loss of Linux hardware support. Sorry to be negative, but I just don't see where this fits.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#128
post #91
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Component architecture is everywhere on the desktops, just not on those using UNIX text terminals. COM has been the underlying driving technology of Windows since Vista, where the Windows team took the Longhorn .NET ideas and redid them with COM, since then we got COM improved as WinRT/UWP. Which despite the common mix with the store (blame marketing teams), is what to this day most Windows 10 APIs make use of, and n…

I'm not sure where you're getting "COM has been the underlying driving technology of Windows since Vista". COM and OLE, which is based on COM, have been a core part of the Windows shell since at least Windows 95/NT 4.0/IE 4. You can see this in the registry where shell extensions are simply registered OLE Components, using OLE Activation to to register themselves as toolbars, folder views, context menus and additiona…

Maybe I should have phrased it in another way.

For you to get where I am coming from, for me Longhorn only failed due to the usual set of politics between DevDiv and WinDev that those of us on Windows know so well throughout the years.

Had they actually worked together and Longhorn, with .NET based stack would have happened, just like it did with Android and ChromeOS. When technical limitations exist, they can be sorted out when everyone rows into the same direction.

So after its failure, and reboot as Vista, the Windows team took many of the Longhorn ideas and redid them as COM libraries.

This decision started a trend (hence my started with Vista), where all major new APIs that were added to Windows since then, were COM based instead of classical Win32.

You can see this by following the C++ Hilo tutorial later released for Windows 7.

When Windows 8 came to be, they decided to double down on this direction and came up with WinRT, which if you read the Ext-VOS paper, looks quite similar. Ext-VOS being what was being designed as successor to VB/C++/J++ as COM evolution, before all the events that made .NET happen.

So you got the Windows team creating WinRT, they also had their own shot at what .NET should be, hence why it uses AOT based compilation with a compiler that only supports the MSIL sets that they cared about.

As we all know by now, due to several reasons this did not turn out as expected, still UWP (as COM evolution is now know) is still the way to go to all major APIs, even in the context of Project Reunion.

So we changed from Win32 + some relevant projects using COM, to Win32 mostly frozen in Windows XP API level + everything else is COM/UWP based.

This was my point about Vista being the turning point where this took place.

I might be wrong, but this is how I see the evolution of those events.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#129
post #7
post #5

The promise of flutter is alive! https://web.dahliaos.io/#/ This has the power to accelerate flutter desktop development in general. Really excited for both these projects.

Desktop environment made in JS? Hell will freeze before I will use such crap with material feel on it. ;)

So ChromeOS?

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#130
post #129
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desktop environment made in JS? Hell will freeze before I will use such crap with material feel on it. ;)

So ChromeOS?

Bit of a fun fact, chrome OS is mostly C++ for the GUI.
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