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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#591

Post by jojobas »

op00to wrote: post #540
jojobas wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the solution is not to bet your life on dozens of conference committees that can cancel you out of your job.

The solution is to get the opinion of the community and colleagues (if you’re employed) prior to giving a talk so you don’t act in a way that could be seen poorly.

Also known as "walking on eggshells".

You can be shamed and fired over something as innocuous as a dongle joke told in private and overheard.

https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/21/a-dongle-joke-that-spirale...

The only sure way not to lose is not to play. That, or be invincible like Bob Martin or Linus Torvalds.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#592

Post by ghaff »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #559
freeone3000 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what grounds?

Libel maybe; people can and have gotten fired over CoC violation allegations (warranted or not) and the consequent internet witch hunt; a famous case is "Donglegate". There's a dangerous trend where an accusation alone is enough to have people lose their jobs.

That's was really nothing to do with a CoC violation directly though. It had to do with a social media blowup that embarrassed and inconvenienced companies in a way that made it easier for both companies to just fire the individuals involved. (As will tend to happen unless an individual has a lot of power.)

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#593

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

Hitton wrote: post #579
ppf wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurators is beyond me. Have you tried doing that? How do you like being hounded out of your job, and probably your profession, by a braying mob? Edit: I also find it bitterly ironic that the Progressive Bay Area-centric Hacker News is now saying how bad all of this is, after being…

HN users are not monolith. Probably most of us aren't in the Bay Area, many are not even from the USA. Many people here wouldn't give a single fuck about some twitter mob because they live in countries where people are more tolerant of opposite views (and finding out your acquaintance votes other party will get him friendly jab, not excommunication).

> and finding out your acquaintance votes other party will get him friendly jab, not excommunication

I've long argued that the US should have lots of parties, and adopt pluralistic voting, but then I stopped when it seemed to me that countries that already have this system don't have demonstrably better political outcomes. But your comment pushes me back to the other side of the argument now. It occurs to me that if we didn't have only 2 sides, practically, maybe policy discussions wouldn't be so damnably acrimonious and win-lose.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#594

Post by dusted »

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

Yeah, the community at large has really embraced PC culture, if you're not special and frail and broken in just the right way (tm), then you're a CIS scum who should be punished, hard. How DARE you disagree with something someone said.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#596

Post by nailer »

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

The biggest particular concern for CoCs is they use the vague term "offensive". Offense is taken not given, I could take offense at this thread and report it. You could take offense at this comment. I could take offense at yours.

Vague rules are meaningless.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#597

Post by baobabKoodaa »

pindab0ter wrote: post #387
barumi wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, CoCs are meant to clearly state that bigotry is unacceptable. Oh really? This discussion is about someone that was persecuted and punished for violating a CoC. Do you see any bigotry involved in this story?

This discussion is about someone being punished by a committee for something that wasn’t in the CoC, as you can read in the article.

No true scotsman.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#598

Post by capableweb »

Hitton wrote: post #579
ppf wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurators is beyond me. Have you tried doing that? How do you like being hounded out of your job, and probably your profession, by a braying mob? Edit: I also find it bitterly ironic that the Progressive Bay Area-centric Hacker News is now saying how bad all of this is, after being…

HN users are not monolith. Probably most of us aren't in the Bay Area, many are not even from the USA. Many people here wouldn't give a single fuck about some twitter mob because they live in countries where people are more tolerant of opposite views (and finding out your acquaintance votes other party will get him friendly jab, not excommunication).

> where people are more tolerant of opposite views

For now yeah but the tides are changing everywhere. Europe (and the US) fought facism, so we had a period of time where politics where mostly shades of purple/blue/red. Now facism is on the rise again, and we're seeing that across Europe, from Spain with Vox to Sweden with "Sweden Democrats". With the rise of these parties, you're seeing more and more of excommunication, as being tolerant of intolerance will only lead to more intolerance, not tolerance.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#599

Post by ghaff »

clusterfish wrote: post #292
chmod775 wrote: post #95

It was clearly a mistake for him to even play along, especially if he was emotionally exhausted already. The best you can do when people are being stupid like this is ignore them. They hold no power over you unless you let them. This whole CoC thing is sadly fraught with virtue signaling psycho-sadists who enjoy playing tribunal. The people who actually cared about fostering inclusive human communities got bullied ou…

They absolutely do have power over you, that's exactly the problem. People who get "canceled" don't just get a nastygram that they can throw in the trash. They are typically banned from speaking, fired / put on probation / "contract not renewed", their reputation is both privately and publicly tarnished such that #1 google result for your name will be that you were banned for CoC violation, damaging your career prosp…

It's the #1 Google search because he wrote about it, right?

The smart thing to do is to "respectfully" disagree and make sure you never speak or attend this or a related event now or in the future or to work with any of the individuals involved. Of course, personally I'd probably lose my temper and say some things I'd regret and tell way too many people about it.

If you just keep quiet, to a first approximation no one knows that you were chastised behind the scenes for something that, if they knew, most people would think was silly. It's not like you're being forced to wear a scarlet C.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#600

Post by jcadam »

bitwize wrote: post #535
chunkyfunky wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"After they told me of the reports and their finding that I had violated the code of conduct, they asked if I had anything to say." There really is only ever one thing to say in a situation like this, and it is "Yes, I refuse to participate any further in this farce; good day!" and then hang up. Personally I would not have been so polite :) CoC committees are breeding grounds for idiots who think you can legislate fo…

Unfortunately, a CoC and a committee to enforce it are now table stakes for an open source project. Part of the reason, I believe, is because companies refuse to commit resources to open source without some assurance that the project will employ best practices to prevent discrimination, harassment, and a hostile work environment, lest the company find itself liable for such. (There's also the "good corporate citizen"…

> And corporate resources dominate open source -- without them we go back to dorm-room side projects of questionable maintenance.

I imagine the transition from "side project" to "I might as well be working for a MegaCorp with all of this HR-esque CoC nonsense" would be most unpleasant. How many project founders bow out at that point?

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