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I Violated a Code of Conduct

fast.ai

571–580 of 971 posts

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#571

I'm reading a lot of comments here saying that CoCs are categorically bad. Which absolutely isn't what Jeremy is saying in this post, in fact he says just the opposite. CoCs help prevent and deal with incidents of racism, sexism, homophobia, threats of violence, etc. Those aren't things I, and presumably you, don't want at conferences. This was an example of CoC being poorly implemented in several ways; that does not…

Code of conducts are untested unlike democratic processes.

They are too new and too different. Some can be written benign and others not. They are tools.

Most political structures have rules in them which work regardless of who weilds them, codes of conduct don't. Codes of conduct assume they will be used by good people (and most of them are!) real law or poltical processes assume they might be used by bad people.

There's a real good reason why we think in law that the accused should be treated as if they are innocent. Most codes assume the accused is guilty.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#572
post #444

I've never seen a CoC used to help protect a community, only to protect certain already powerful members within a community and give them a tool with which to beat others. Lately I've been actively avoiding giving my time to open source projects that have CoC's like the Contributor Covenant[1], mainly because - if my experience is anything to go by - they are a strong signal that the kind of people I wish to avoid wi…

I've been wondering about this. Obviously there's a demand for CoCs coming from somewhere, or there wouldn't be a supply of them. What is driving this demand? Is this demand driven by good intentions? By a genuine desire to improve diversity? To attract those who might otherwise feel less safe? Is this demand driven by a "fear of being left out" because big names in tech are setting an example? Is this demand entirel…

It would be interesting to see if there's any evidence that these CoCs improve diversity of any sort, the lack of which is partly why I'm against them, but mainly because of the division I've seen them sow.

As to their intentions, I'm not sure they're that relevant (I'm sure they'd believe they were good intentions anyway), but I think our intentions are. They say "we want to increase diversity" and "we want to end sexism and racism", so in comes a "kind" CoC, and because the majority do have good intentions and share these laudable goals there is agreement, forgetting that famous old adage "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions" and before you know it the definitions of racism and sexism have been changed to a point that vilifies the majority and a small group are wielding outsized power via terms and conditions that we all signed.

I've a feeling it mirrors the culture wars[1] on social media, and even contains some of the same members of the 12% minority cited there.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24894248

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#573
post #557
post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

> Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurators is beyond me. Because some people actually do act like jerks, and we want to be able to tell those people to either stop acting like jerks or go away. > CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Rather, Codes of Conduct are more difficult than you think. The article it…

"On the one hand, I'd love to be able to (for instance) outsource all CoC engagement and enforcement to a specialized body, that could manage a whole investigation / accuser / defense / jury system for a number of different organizations."

You know, that's a pretty good idea. And if there were actual laws backing it, then you already have a "working" system. Now I am starting to wonder, should CoCs even try to transcend the law, is that part of the problem, where we try to legislate for things that are in many cases subjective?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#574
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support codes of conduct but this is EXACTLY the thing that opponents point to when they oppose them. Why don't you come to to the dark side and oppose codes of conduct then? I consider the purported goals of codes of conduct to be laudable. But this kind of thing becomes inevitable when SJWs aka political correctness police get power through trying to enforce codes of conduct. It isn't that sometimes proponents of…

Can you provide a concrete example of this “political correctness” you are opposed to?

As it is popularly opposed and used it is equivalent to "Newspeak".

For example we had the definition of racism changed. Racism wasn't attributing negative properties to skin color, it has extended to unfalsifiable bias. Also some skin colors are never racist while other always are. Disagreeing means you are racist.

You have a rule against racism in your COC and pretend someone is biased and you conjured an excuse to exclude someone without any sensible rationale.

It is not difficult to understand the objection.

edit: Other examples are behavioral expectations like having to bow before a cross, working in the kitchen, acknowledging your guilt....

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#575
post #3

If you haven't yet: I think both talks are very worth watching: I don't like notebooks ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jiPeIFXb6U ) by Joel Grus I like notebooks ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q6sLbz37gk ) by Jeremy Howard notebooks are a very interesting medium and they have both shortcomings as well as things they are great at and neither were totally obvious to me.

I feel like I am doing things "wrong" on an almost daily basis when writing code. It is probably a pretty universal feeling. Should I put my business logic in a database, application code, front end JavaScript, or even a notebook? There is no ideal solution. Tell me I am wrong and I will probably agree with you.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rebuilt? Why? Do you read the code of conduct when you attend a conference? Personally, I haven't even read the code of conduct for my job, and certainly wouldn't read one if I was speaking at or attending a conference. The CoCs are completely unnecessary and, as shown in this example, arbitrarily enforced. In the blog post I read that their CoC prohibits threats and assaults. Consider how silly that is. If someone's…

He may not support them, but in the current culture you have to pretend to otherwise people might think you're a sexist or a racist. I don't support them, but I pretend to.

> you have to pretend to otherwise people might think you're a sexist or a racist

Or quickly get you fired by shaming you employer. No one want to jeopardize their jobs.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#577
> I was concerned that if only partial information became available, the anti-CoC crowd might jump on this as an example of problems with codes of conduct more generally, or might point at this as part of “cancel culture” (a concept I vehemently disagree with, since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences”).

The point I wish to make is that Jeremy is either experiencing some cognitive dissonance, or his frustration is overriding his fear with regards to his position on CoCs in general.

Whether he intends for it or not, his article taken as a whole aligns much more closely with the gripes from the "anti-CoC crowd" than one in support of CoCs; despite him stating that he is attempting to deter the anti-CoC crowd. Why? Well his argument is that the CoC committee is essentially a capricious entity. This is evidenced by his expected experience versus reality, among other things:

> I was also heartened that the manual has a section “Communicate with the Reported Person about the Incident” which says they will “Let the reported person tell someone on the CoC response team their side of the story; the person who receives their side of the story should be prepared to convey it at the response team meeting”.

but then the actual experience did not go quite as planned:

> I was stunned. The representative could not even commit to a time when they would get back to me, or tell me what would be happening next. I told them that I thought that telling someone that they had a violation report, but then not saying what it is, or when or whether they would be able to provide their side of the story, or providing any time-frame for any next step was cruel.

> The next call did not happen for another week (I had made myself available to meet any time). I was shocked to read that the purpose of the call would be to “discuss the results of our investigation”. I could not understand how they could have completed their investigation and have results, without any input from me.

And Jeremy's true feelings about the situation were laid out at the top of the article:

> The process has left me shattered, and I won’t be able to accept any speaking requests for the foreseeable future.

And directly following it is his dissonance/fear kicking in: > ... for the foreseeable future. I support the thoughtful enforcement of Code of Conducts to address sexist, racist, and harassing behavior, but that is not what happened in this case.

Throughout the article, we find Jeremy constantly defending the ideas behind CoCs. Despite that, the entire article serves to show how those ideas utterly failed in practice; and as such, serves as an example against CoCs. As such, I hypothesize that this is either because Jeremy does not actually agree with CoCs, but is too fearful that he feels it's necessary to consistently defend their ideas. Or he still hasn't come to terms with the fact that CoCs aren't all he's made them up to be, and now that he's gone through the other end of it and been left feeling "shattered" is struggling to reconcile his emotions and experience from his ideology regarding CoCs.

In the event Jeremy's defense of CoCs is fear based, then I am saddened about the current state of affairs. On the other hand, if it's the case that he is experiencing cognitive dissonance, I wish him the best of luck finding clarity.

Does any else have other ideas on the author feels compelled to defend CoCs while at the same time damaging their reputation via example?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#578
post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

"After they told me of the reports and their finding that I had violated the code of conduct, they asked if I had anything to say." There really is only ever one thing to say in a situation like this, and it is "Yes, I refuse to participate any further in this farce; good day!" and then hang up. Personally I would not have been so polite :) CoC committees are breeding grounds for idiots who think you can legislate fo…

It's worse than that, these are deeply authoritarian and self-righteous mediocrities, only tangentially invested in a field where they would be rightfully irrelevant otherwise. What other kind of person would want to be part of such a committee? So in effect we created a lure for psychos and then gave them unchecked power to legislate over everybody else. What could go wrong.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#579
post #550
post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

>Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurators is beyond me. Have you tried doing that? How do you like being hounded out of your job, and probably your profession, by a braying mob? Edit: I also find it bitterly ironic that the Progressive Bay Area-centric Hacker News is now saying how bad all of this is, after being…

HN users are not monolith. Probably most of us aren't in the Bay Area, many are not even from the USA. Many people here wouldn't give a single fuck about some twitter mob because they live in countries where people are more tolerant of opposite views (and finding out your acquaintance votes other party will get him friendly jab, not excommunication).

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the chuckling in the call when someone has already said they’re not in a proper emotional state is just bullying. I can’t speak to who this person was or why they did this, but I did just want to mention that there is at least one good faith explanation that isn’t straight up bullying. When I am in uncomfortable situations, I have a nervous chuckle. If I were in this call, giving this feedback to this person, I…

My aunt had a nervous laughter. I learned that when I was five, and I had just got a bike and trying to learn how to ride it. My aunt was visiting and I wanted to show off, lost control and hit the asphalt with quite some speed. Hands and knee were all scratched up and hurt like hell and there she was, standing, laughing out loud. I recall thinking how mean that was. While cleaning my wounds my mom explained the situ…

Jump cultures and you get to see fun variations on the "nervous laugh". It is rather interesting how different cultures consider the behavior of other cultures to be unacceptable in some situations.
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