I Violated a Code of Conduct • Hacker News Board

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#531

Post by KnobbleMcKnees » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 10:35 AM UTC

csnover wrote: post #380

newscracker wrote: post #184

After reading the entire post, I feel really bad for him, and I hope he gets the time off and the support necessary to recover from this incident. I also feel quite angry with how he has been treated. So please let me vent it out here as politely as I’m able to. I can imagine something like this or worse happening on social media groups, but an ostentatious “committee” that listens only to one side and never gives th…

> And the chuckling in the call when someone has already said they’re not in a proper emotional state is just bullying. I can’t speak to who this person was or why they did this, but I did just want to mention that there is at least one good faith explanation that isn’t straight up bullying. When I am in uncomfortable situations, I have a nervous chuckle. If I were in this call, giving this feedback to this person, I…

You may be right, but according to their own code of conduct and actions as stated by Jeremy, all that matters is how the complainant feels in response to the action of the speaker, and they should therefore be immediately and summarily dismissed from their role of conference organiser and/or CoC enforcer.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#532

Post by madeofpalk » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 10:35 AM UTC

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

> Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts

I'm confused - are you saying that any group cannot set their own rules or guidelines unless they also create their own judiciary?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#533

Post by 3princip » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 10:37 AM UTC

>I support the thoughtful enforcement of Code of Conducts to address sexist, racist, and harassing behavior, but that is not what happened in this case.

Well, too bad. The authors idea of thoughtful enforcement doesn't align with reality. Harassment in the context of CoCs is in the eye of the beholder.

Them continuing to support something that they've experienced being unjust first hand, what is there more to say? They should suck it up and accept the violation.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#534

Post by op00to » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 10:38 AM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #532

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

> Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts I'm confused - are you saying that any group cannot set their own rules or guidelines unless they also create their own judiciary?

I think you actually have to create a whole government, executive, legislative, judiciary. The article reads like a teenager complaining about getting punished for writing an essay about something edgy.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#535

Post by bitwize » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 10:40 AM UTC

chunkyfunky wrote: post #523

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

"After they told me of the reports and their finding that I had violated the code of conduct, they asked if I had anything to say." There really is only ever one thing to say in a situation like this, and it is "Yes, I refuse to participate any further in this farce; good day!" and then hang up. Personally I would not have been so polite :) CoC committees are breeding grounds for idiots who think you can legislate fo…

Unfortunately, a CoC and a committee to enforce it are now table stakes for an open source project. Part of the reason, I believe, is because companies refuse to commit resources to open source without some assurance that the project will employ best practices to prevent discrimination, harassment, and a hostile work environment, lest the company find itself liable for such. (There's also the "good corporate citizen" bit about not being seen to support bigotry and hate.) And corporate resources dominate open source -- without them we go back to dorm-room side projects of questionable maintenance.

A-Train's Law applies: You don't fuck with the money. You never fuck with the money.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#536

Post by ratww » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 10:41 AM UTC

taneq wrote: post #201

seanwilson wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. Aren't you just buying into the clickbait/hype here and adding to it? How many people is it really? How many people take this as seriously as media stories make it sound? I think you're assuming a very loud vocal minority represents the opinions of everyone. The problem to me is a single digit number of people can have an opinion that they find something is offe…

> According to the 1% rule, about 1% of Internet users are responsible for creating content [...] I wonder how true this is now? Even if we don't count social media as "content" (and some of it certainly is) most web content is participatory in some way and I'd wager a decent percentage of web users (if not internet users) are now contributing.

I wonder if it isn't even more lopsided today, since sharing content is the main activity in most popular social networks today, unlike when this "rule" was coined...

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#537

Post by op00to » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 10:42 AM UTC

tomnipotent wrote: post #481

freeone3000 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what grounds?

There are legal expectations for how companies can terminate employees, I think it's only fair that professional organizations organizing professional events also be held legally accountable for the impacts they have on individuals. More often than not, these responsibilities emerge after onerous legal discourse, legal judgement, and promise of punishment.

You may think it’s fair, but you don’t have a (in the US at least) constitutional right to be protected from inexperienced application of a code of conduct.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#538

Post by op00to » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 10:44 AM UTC

clusterfish wrote: post #292

chmod775 wrote: post #95

It was clearly a mistake for him to even play along, especially if he was emotionally exhausted already. The best you can do when people are being stupid like this is ignore them. They hold no power over you unless you let them. This whole CoC thing is sadly fraught with virtue signaling psycho-sadists who enjoy playing tribunal. The people who actually cared about fostering inclusive human communities got bullied ou…

They absolutely do have power over you, that's exactly the problem. People who get "canceled" don't just get a nastygram that they can throw in the trash. They are typically banned from speaking, fired / put on probation / "contract not renewed", their reputation is both privately and publicly tarnished such that #1 google result for your name will be that you were banned for CoC violation, damaging your career prosp…

This dudes super long blog post acting like a victim is a much more damaging blow to his employability than the bullshit opinion of some committee.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#539

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 10:45 AM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #87

"NumFOCUS" apparently has spare manpower to appoint or maybe even employs a "Code of Conduct Enforcement Team" and have "committee meetings" and calls to deal with extremely important situations such as someone making people uncomfortable ? What the actual fuck? Out of all the actual problems in the world, including in free software where you can use your time productively and contribute code, this is what they chose…

All these committees are earily similar to soviet union from where I'm coming from. Fascinating and worrisome at the same time for America.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#540

Post by op00to » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 10:46 AM UTC

jojobas wrote: post #420

austhrow743 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conference talks are marketing that you do to make money. The tribunals wielding CoCs have the power to hit speakers in the wallet. Outside of violence that's pretty much as much power as you can have over a person.

So the solution is not to bet your life on dozens of conference committees that can cancel you out of your job.

The solution is to get the opinion of the community and colleagues (if you’re employed) prior to giving a talk so you don’t act in a way that could be seen poorly.