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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#81

Post by bawolff »

Spivak wrote: post #46

Okay, forget the CoC for a second, can we evaluate this talk with just regular human empathy? Because I think he’s being somewhat of a dick. Like it’s a little rude and not in the best taste. Like it was totally possible to give this talk in a positive manner talking about all the reasons you think notebooks are good and demonstrating the use-cases. * You don’t have to call out or reference the original speaker at al…

So i only skimmed the presentation (It is an hour long).

> You don’t have to call out or reference the original speaker at all and say they’re wrong

I disagree. His talk is essentially a direct response to the other presentation. He is assuming context from the original presentation (A very famous one in this space from what I can pick up). Without explaining the context, his presentation would make less sense to those not as familiar with this particular tech scene.

Its not like he's saying the other person is an idiot or something. He actually compliments the other speaker multiple times.

> You can give your reasons why notebooks are good and even tackle common criticisms without picking apart their talk specifically

If your goal is to talk up notebooks sure. If your goal is to respectfully disagree with the widely accepted dogma, then you should make direct reference to the work you are responding to.

> Why would you say something negative about a peer’s work on stage

Making provocative statements challenging widely held beliefs is literally the job of a keynote speaker.

Not that anyone should really consider constructive criticism of an argument the same as saying something negative about the person making them. Personally, I think it'd be pretty passive-aggressive to demolish someone's work without doing the courtesy of referencing the work you are arguing against.

Edit: At the same time, I'm very sad to see you being downvoted. You make a reasonable argument that deserves to be debated on its merit, not downvoted imo.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#82

Post by eplanit »

avhon1 wrote: post #73
eplanit wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you can't criticize ideas ("Joe Schmoe is wrong about X"), then I'd say you're not doing a great job of exchanging ideas." But, the example you give is one that criticizes Joe Schmoe, not X. How about just "X is wrong", and leave Joe out of it so that the discourse is about the rightness or wrongness of X.

If Joe Schmoe is a very public proponent of X, then everyone will make that connection themselves. Also, if Joe Schmoe and Alice Shclalice have different, but aligned, support of X, it can be useful to your audience to identify different parts of your criticism as "this is how I disagree with Joe" and "this is how I disagree with Alice".

Which still uses language that criticizes the people: "how I disagree with $PERSON". To keep a discourse civil, don't allow it to become personal.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#83

Post by silly-silly »

pstuart wrote: post #37
marcinzm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I see it, a CoC is a tool for those in power to better exert their influence and control. If those in power are just and competent then it's a tool for good. If those in power are selfish or unskilled then it's a tool for ill. Unfortunately, I suspect the latter is much more often the case than the former.

> As I see it, a CoC is a tool It's a tool for communicating expectations of behavior. There's nothing wrong about managing expectations. Think of it as the next level "no shoes, no shirt, no service". Unfortunately, tools can be abused, and this case was no exception. It doesn't mean that the tool should be discarded, it should be refined.

Except these are "unless you are wearing what someone else doesn't find offensive".

This requires a fashion sense that keeps 100% of people happy enough not to report you.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#84

Post by joshuamorton »

anonymousiam wrote: post #24
readthenotes1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But its findings were wrong. Very wrong. And not just due to its questionable ethics or lack of concrete data — but because of deceit." https://www.vox.com/2018/6/13/17449118/stanford-prison-exper...

The findings have not been duplicated, but that doesn't mean the experiment did not produce the results described. I am very much aware of the controversy surrounding this experiment, but it has been cited MANY times over the past (almost) 50 years.

There are lots of widely cited, wrong, studies. It being widely cited should be more of a motivator to "not* cite it and object to it's use, to further inform people that it is bunk.

You should not continue to cite popular, wrong, studies.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#85

Post by bawolff »

civilized wrote: post #72
Spivak wrote: post #46

Okay, forget the CoC for a second, can we evaluate this talk with just regular human empathy? Because I think he’s being somewhat of a dick. Like it’s a little rude and not in the best taste. Like it was totally possible to give this talk in a positive manner talking about all the reasons you think notebooks are good and demonstrating the use-cases. * You don’t have to call out or reference the original speaker at al…

What, exactly, do your personal feelings and values have to do with the question of whether Jeremy was "a dick" to Joel? Isn't that between Jeremy and Joel? Joel didn't have a problem with Jeremy's talk. Why do you think you know better than Joel whether it was appropriate to criticize Joel in the way that Jeremy did? Your belief that, whatever Joel may have thought, your perspective is the one of "regular human empa…

I disagree in principle. The "victim" doesn't have to be offended for the behaviour to potentially be inappropriate. Behaviour has second order effects beyond the direct "victim" (e.g. people watch and think its ok, so more people do it, and it becomes "normal"). Its also entirely possible for the victim to be hurt, without him admitting it for a variety of reasons (E.g. social pressure, not wanting to be seen as weak or a crybaby, etc).

To be clear, I'm speaking in principle. I don't agree in the particular case that the behaviour was inappropriate.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#86

Post by ekianjo »

tptacek wrote: post #13
echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

This conference isn't a good example, but it is totally reasonable to run an event or a space with a norm of avoiding criticism. That's part of the job of a code of conduct: to establish those norms . Here, the norms were surprising (a back-and-forth between two presentations is a perennial seat-filler at tech conferences) and poorly communicated. That's a problem. But "banning criticism" isn't necessarily a problem.…

> But "banning criticism" isn't necessarily a problem.

So whoever pushes their opinion first wins, since they would not be able to be criticized by that logic.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#87

Post by Nextgrid »

"NumFOCUS" apparently has spare manpower to appoint or maybe even employs a "Code of Conduct Enforcement Team" and have "committee meetings" and calls to deal with extremely important situations such as someone making people uncomfortable? What the actual fuck? Out of all the actual problems in the world, including in free software where you can use your time productively and contribute code, this is what they chose to focus on? Come on.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#88

Post by mynegation »

ben0x539 wrote: post #70
mynegation wrote: post #43

Ok JupyterCon people. You are wrong. You are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong. The ability to voice a critique constructively is vital for a proper discourse. The ability to take a critique constructively is vital for a proper discourse. If anyone thinks I am wrong in here, tell me and let’s duke it out.

I think you're wrong: This isn't about whether voicing critique is acceptable, it's that a breakdown in communication caused a relatively harmless situation to cause much anguish.

If I understand correctly what you are saying, you imply that applying this to Jeremy would be fine if only it was communicated properly and in advance.

I disagree, because the context is important. Sure, JupyterCon is free to set their own rules. But freedom does not make it right. It is not some kind of moral support group, not a Sunday book club, it is a conference, where sharing and discussing research is the whole point.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#89

Post by ausjke »

echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

Watch "the social dilemma"

Political correctness is killing this country, inside out.

The media and big-tech are now the big brothers. The network did not bring people together, it drove us apart.

Even this post will be downvoted, because it does not sound "kind and nice", because it complained about big-media-tech's censorship, thus it must be censored at HN

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#90

Post by akerl_ »

avhon1 wrote: post #69
tptacek wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This conference isn't a good example, but it is totally reasonable to run an event or a space with a norm of avoiding criticism. That's part of the job of a code of conduct: to establish those norms . Here, the norms were surprising (a back-and-forth between two presentations is a perennial seat-filler at tech conferences) and poorly communicated. That's a problem. But "banning criticism" isn't necessarily a problem.…

I'm not sure it's possible to ban criticism without also banning opinions. If you give a presentation on how some new tool or technique is good, you're implicitly implying that the existing alternatives aren't as good. Many presentations will even explicitly call out weaknesses in existing things (criticising them!) in order to illustrate why some new thing is worthwhile. If you talk about how your research fills in…

It feels like a serious stretch to talk about “implicitly implying” criticism of other options. If I say I love Chips Ahoy, I’m not “implicitly implying” criticism of Oreos.

I think you may have accidentally encountered a slippery slope.

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