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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#431

Post by RonanTheGrey »

necovek wrote: post #425
RonanTheGrey wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's slight, but feel the difference between "You should read...", "You'd like reading...", "I think you'd really like...", "I got a lot out of reading...". I used to obsess about things like this and then someone pointed out to me, "You'll never, ever get it right. You will word something some way, attempting to be gentle, and they will still be offended. You will NEVER win. So the only thing you can do is be sinc…

Well put! Another thing that I am not a fan of is when people ask to always mention that it's only one's opinion. Well duh, unless obviously supported by verifiable evidence, it is only my opinion. In my opinion!

Agreed, another statement I don't find fulfilling is "oh well it's always been this way".

Well I mean yes, it has... but we're discussing it because we're considering the option that maybe there's another way, right?

Same with "it's just an opinion". Well, yes, that's kinda the point. Let's discuss the idea, not where in my head it came from.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#432

Post by GeneralMayhem »

tptacek wrote: post #344
offbyone wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apropos of nothing related, I want to know: What, exactly, were you confident yet wrong about in regards to bay leaves?

Someone asked on Twitter what, if any, flavor bay leaves had. I repeated advice I'd heard: supermarket bay leaves are bad, so just add a lot of them. Then I acted on another piece of advice: if you want to know what bay leaves taste like, steep them in water and taste the water. I did. Bay leaves are disgusting. Nobody should add more of them to anything.

I wouldn't recommend making tea out of most herbs, including uncontroversial staples like basil and oregano. Doesn't mean they don't add useful flavors in the right dishes.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#433

Post by roenxi »

gorgoiler wrote: post #326
ghaff wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4th implies the 3rd. If I think you're wrong, I'll say you're wrong--with reasons. Adding some additional words like "in my oh so humble opinion I think" doesn't change the fundamental meaning. (And I have absolutely criticized well-known people's opinions on public stages.)

It absolutely changes the meaning. Perhaps, in some cultures or subcultures, showing humility has a weakening effect but I tend to avoid those places nowadays, or at least push back on them. ...I think [and am willing to be proven wrong.]

Do you forsee a circumstance where forthrightly saying "The state of the world is X" implies "The state of the world is X but I don't believe it"? That seems like a difficult state of mind to achieve.

I'd buy that there are subcultures where prefixing "I think..." is a gesture of respect. But the CoC's I'm familiar with generality don't demand that the speaker aligns with a specific culture. Often they encourage accepting multiple cultures.

Indeed, I'll go as far as saying that a big part of conferences is encouraging different subcultures to listen to each other.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#434

Post by spinny »

ilaksh wrote: post #329
echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

Bullying and criticism are two completely different things. "Bullying" usually refers to actual criminal activities by children. Such as stealing objects, harassing, hitting, beating etc. Which happened to me. Criticism is something completely different.

In the beginning there was 2 of them, but none of them (or both together) had the courage to try. Then they tried to recruit number 3. Number 3 was courageous and dumb. Snapped his pinky, no words spoken. None of them tried again for years. Was 13 at the time. Cancel culture is a tool for weak people

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#435

Post by tomp »

gwbas1c wrote: post #232
barumi wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using CoC's to backstab people is not going to end well. But that's their only usecase, isn't it? CoCs are just a convenient document aimed at helping out Cardinal Richelieus finding ways to hang you under the guise of breaking acceptable conduct. I mean, CoCs aren't aimed at changing people and make everyone nice. CoCs are aimed at providing a basis to persecute those who arguably don't comply with a given notion…

No, CoCs are meant to clearly state that bigotry is unacceptable. If you don't understand why it's necessary at times to clearly state what bigotry is, and why it's unacceptable, than you need to learn a bit more about diversity topics. They (CoC)s shouldn't be used to play power games. It's totally appropriate to call out situations where a CoC is used incorrectly.

Most CoCs state that discrimination based on religion is not acceptable, but don't mention political belief.

Both are opinions, and I honestly don't see why one would be bigotry, but not the other. Hence the only thing I conclude is that CoCs are actually about politics, but framed in a very nice way, pretending to be based on empathy and inclusion, making them very hard to object to.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#436

Post by skohan »

csnover wrote: post #355
barumi wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a take. It's an objective description of what a CoC is and how it is designed to be used. There is no way around it. At all. I'm surprised you feel the need to turn a blind eye to this fact. Let's put it differently: without it's oppressive and persecutory function, what's the point of a CoC? To make it even simpler to you, what do you expect if someone in a community is deemed in direct violation of a CoC?

Like any other system of laws, a code of conduct necessarily restricts the boundaries of what one individual is allowed to do in order to ensure there is a safe space for others. When used correctly, instead of inhibiting the free exchange of ideas, a CoC helps keep participants in an open and receptive mindset instead of a closed and defensive one. Acknowledging that people come from different backgrounds or belief…

In general I agree with your point that communities often need some sort of guard rails to ensure that they can stay productive, especially as a community grows.

I think the challenge is in enforcement. A code of conduct should be a measure of last resort. In your example:

> a functioning code of conduct should make the difference between someone saying “I don’t understand why anyone would believe X”, which is an open statement that invites thoughtful discussion, versus “X is stupid and anyone who believes it is an idiot”, which is a closed statement that triggers fighting instead.

I don't think that the code of conduct should be invoked the first time someone steps a bit onto the side of expressing something in a hostile way. When collages are in the process of solving real problems, and getting real work done, it can be the case that disagreements occasionally get heated. If someone steps a bit over the line in terms of how they express themselves in such a disagreement, the first response should be for a colleague to put the metaphorical hand on the shoulder and invite the offender to reign it in a bit, equal-to-equal, rather than invoking the authority of the CoC right away. If someone repeatedly demonstrates abusive behavior, then it makes sense to escalate this to a matter of community governance.

It's certainly not ideal if people express themselves in a hurtful or inflammatory way, but if everyone is self-censoring for fear of punishment, it can negatively affect the quality of work that gets done.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#437

Post by necovek »

donw wrote: post #323
taneq wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core problem with the self-esteem movement is that they try to promote high self-esteem disconnected from any true achievement or worth . High self-esteem certainly correlates with healthy, successful people (of course healthy successful people have good self esteem!) but trying to artificially inflate peoples' self esteem to create health and success is driving the causation backwards. Self esteem devoid of any…

> Self esteem devoid of any underlying achievement is hollow. In the end you're basically manufacturing narcissists, with a fragile falsely inflated self image covering a chasm of insecurity. Precisely. At the same time, I think that social connections divorced from physical reality -- as is on the Internet -- compound this to the nth degree. I can pretend to be an amazing dancer or boxer or chef on Facebook, but it'…

Dancing for leisure is practiced by anyone, and people can be good dancers because "good" is defined differently for something so universally practiced.

Like, is your mom or grandma a good cook? How many Michelin stars would her kitchen get? :)

Not saying this person wasn't a prick, just that dancing is hard to get an idea of how good you are at without already accepting that you suck at it while being repeatedly told how you are a good dancer (and if you are simply willing to let go on a dance floor as a male, you were likely to be termed a good dancer in my youth).

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#438

Post by throwaway189262 »

Ugh cancel culture is exhausting. The political spectrum is a circle. The far left and right are flavors of the same thing, loud and utterly intolerant of anyone not like themselves.

The far right will tell you about their intolerance to your face, the individualistic version of intolerance. Like an asshole neighbor. The far left will make endless laws and rules, using the power of group norms to attack you. Like a shitty HOA.

Both I find insufferable. I wish US politics would turn back towards the center. I blame social media AI bubbles for segregating everyone into their own world where there's nobody with an opposite opinion to temper absolutism

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#439

Post by pabs3 »

PhilosAccnting wrote: post #417
cookiengineer wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the OP article is heartbreaking. Not because I think how they handled the case is wrong, but how they excluded him from a society he was embracing and trying to identify with. For my own project I was considering to include a code of conduct. But currently decided against it because I do not think the purpose of a code of conduct should be written down as potential punishments as consequences. A lot of people…

The issue, I sincerely believe, is a form of justice that goes beyond "eye for an eye". I call it "face for an eye": a beatdown in response to a sucker punch. The cause, frankly, comes from severe psychological trauma that breaks sensible thinking [1]. But, it's no excuse. The solution? I believe it requires making people more moral, thus making them more just. How to do that is, effectively, something I believe is b…

The folks behind restorative and transformative justice have some interesting ideas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformative_justice https://savethekidsgroup.org/defining-transformative-justice...

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#440

Post by luckylion »

cookiengineer wrote: post #408
echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

I think the OP article is heartbreaking. Not because I think how they handled the case is wrong, but how they excluded him from a society he was embracing and trying to identify with. For my own project I was considering to include a code of conduct. But currently decided against it because I do not think the purpose of a code of conduct should be written down as potential punishments as consequences. A lot of people…

> But currently decided against it because I do not think the purpose of a code of conduct should be written down as potential punishments as consequences.

I believe that it would be a good thing if you could write it down, but you can't, or you'll spend your time writing down what is and isn't allowed. What's bad about the CoCs of today is that they are vague and are built for selective enforcement. There's no definition of "kind" that includes "don't say other people are wrong", but the people who love to wield power will simply read into it whatever they please and hang you with it. At the same time, they will say that much worse acts aren't "unkind" because the target deserved it.

Don't do a CoC, just kick out people who are actually assholes. You don't need a CoC to do that, and somebody who is an asshole won't stop being an asshole because you've written that they can't contribute if they are.

I consider CoCs harmful and they're a negative indicator for projects to me. Not because I'm not kind, but because it hints that the maintainers are easily swayed by outside forces and will bend to pressure.

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