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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#71

Post by jimbokun »

tptacek wrote: post #13
echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

This conference isn't a good example, but it is totally reasonable to run an event or a space with a norm of avoiding criticism. That's part of the job of a code of conduct: to establish those norms . Here, the norms were surprising (a back-and-forth between two presentations is a perennial seat-filler at tech conferences) and poorly communicated. That's a problem. But "banning criticism" isn't necessarily a problem.…

For the most part, communities asking their members to be vulnerable, in practice often results in criticizing individuals or entire groups who are not represented in the community, with no attempt to understand their viewpoints.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#72

Post by civilized »

Spivak wrote: post #46

Okay, forget the CoC for a second, can we evaluate this talk with just regular human empathy? Because I think he’s being somewhat of a dick. Like it’s a little rude and not in the best taste. Like it was totally possible to give this talk in a positive manner talking about all the reasons you think notebooks are good and demonstrating the use-cases. * You don’t have to call out or reference the original speaker at al…

What, exactly, do your personal feelings and values have to do with the question of whether Jeremy was "a dick" to Joel? Isn't that between Jeremy and Joel? Joel didn't have a problem with Jeremy's talk. Why do you think you know better than Joel whether it was appropriate to criticize Joel in the way that Jeremy did?

Your belief that, whatever Joel may have thought, your perspective is the one of "regular human empathy" is indicative of a certain narcissism about the superiority about your own moral sentiments. The same narcissism that motivated this farcical CoC accusation and persecution mess to begin with.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#73

Post by avhon1 »

eplanit wrote: post #67
tschwimmer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Each conference has their own goals, but I'd think that a general thread that underlies all of them is the exchange of ideas. If you can't criticize ideas ("Joe Schmoe is wrong about X"), then I'd say you're not doing a great job of exchanging ideas. I think preventing attendees from criticizing people ("Joe Schmoe is dumb") is perfectly fine, but that's clearly not what happened here.

"If you can't criticize ideas ("Joe Schmoe is wrong about X"), then I'd say you're not doing a great job of exchanging ideas." But, the example you give is one that criticizes Joe Schmoe, not X. How about just "X is wrong", and leave Joe out of it so that the discourse is about the rightness or wrongness of X.

If Joe Schmoe is a very public proponent of X, then everyone will make that connection themselves.

Also, if Joe Schmoe and Alice Shclalice have different, but aligned, support of X, it can be useful to your audience to identify different parts of your criticism as "this is how I disagree with Joe" and "this is how I disagree with Alice".

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#74

Post by jimkleiber »

zdragnar wrote: post #60
bawolff wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't like criticism. I was bullied a lot as a kid. I don't like the idea of conflating "bullying" and "criticism". They're very different things. Even harsh criticism isn't really the same thing as bullying in my mind (Although it can be a part of bullying).

Surely, it isn't a leap to imagine that someone who was bullied a lot as a child would have a difficult time constructively receiving criticism? I believe most people are not great at constructively giving it, so it doesn't seem like that should be a stretch at all.

I agree and I'd add that most of us aren't good at giving constructive feedback either, so it can be a double-edged sword (if I used that idiom correctly).

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#75

Post by seanwilson »

echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

> Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people.

Aren't you just buying into the clickbait/hype here and adding to it? How many people is it really? How many people take this as seriously as media stories make it sound?

I think you're assuming a very loud vocal minority represents the opinions of everyone.

The problem to me is a single digit number of people can have an opinion that they find something is offensive (which is always going to happen when enough people are looking at it), and the news + social media + internet comments magnify and compound this with stories like "you'll never believe what people want to cancel next!!!" and comments like "omg these people are so stupid I hate cancel culture!!!".

Also see:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_(Internet_culture)

"According to the 1% rule, about 1% of Internet users are responsible for creating content, while 99% are merely consumers of that content. For example, for every person who posts on a forum, generally about 99 other people view that forum but do not post. "

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#76

Post by ghaff »

gorgoiler wrote: post #63
tschwimmer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Each conference has their own goals, but I'd think that a general thread that underlies all of them is the exchange of ideas. If you can't criticize ideas ("Joe Schmoe is wrong about X"), then I'd say you're not doing a great job of exchanging ideas. I think preventing attendees from criticizing people ("Joe Schmoe is dumb") is perfectly fine, but that's clearly not what happened here.

I like your example. I can see why, on the scale of... “Joe is dumb ” .. “Joe is wrong ” .. “Joe is wrong about X ” .. “ Why I think Joe is wrong about X” ...anything but the final one feels unduly confrontational. That’s how I felt, reading your comment.

The 4th implies the 3rd. If I think you're wrong, I'll say you're wrong--with reasons. Adding some additional words like "in my oh so humble opinion I think" doesn't change the fundamental meaning. (And I have absolutely criticized well-known people's opinions on public stages.)

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#77

Post by bb88 »

ahelwer wrote: post #19
echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

I encourage anyone who believes social media has divided our society like never before to read a small amount of history of the Vietnam war era. Here's a taste: in 1970, the national guard murdered four unarmed students at Kent State. A poll showed 58% of Americans blamed the students, who were widely smeared. Maybe the real rot of social media is how it erases in peoples' minds the idea that anything could have happ…

To be fair, the draft over a war was what really drove people apart in the 60's/70's. The youth of the country didn't want to die face down in the mud in a god forsaken jungle in vietnam to support the anti-communist narrative spouted by our political leaders.

In 2020, we no longer use the draft. What's our excuse for being so polarized?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#78

Post by ben0x539 »

Spivak wrote: post #46

Okay, forget the CoC for a second, can we evaluate this talk with just regular human empathy? Because I think he’s being somewhat of a dick. Like it’s a little rude and not in the best taste. Like it was totally possible to give this talk in a positive manner talking about all the reasons you think notebooks are good and demonstrating the use-cases. * You don’t have to call out or reference the original speaker at al…

Even if OP were to have committed a horrible sin in the talk, this isn't the outcome anyone was hoping for. Hence the actual talk is very much a side issue.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#79

Post by flamble »

762236 wrote: post #49

I stopped reading when he said he's fine with cancel culture: since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences” . No, cancel culture is bullying. Edit: I feel that the author was bullied, or mistreated, so I was primed to be upset when seeing his own dismissal of cancel culture.

It has always been the case that certain behaviors incur social opprobrium. I assume that you don't literally think that shaming or punishing someone for their actions is categorically wrong, regardless of the situation. I've seen Harvey Weinstein's conviction for multiple assaults referred to as "cancelling". Are you suggesting that we should totally refrain from judgment?

The real debate is over (a) what kind of conduct warrants "cancellation" and (b) over what standards of proof ought to be. If your response to the implication that some misdeeds merit being disgraced is to stop engaging, then you're part of the problem.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#80

Post by ekianjo »

ahelwer wrote: post #19
echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

I encourage anyone who believes social media has divided our society like never before to read a small amount of history of the Vietnam war era. Here's a taste: in 1970, the national guard murdered four unarmed students at Kent State. A poll showed 58% of Americans blamed the students, who were widely smeared. Maybe the real rot of social media is how it erases in peoples' minds the idea that anything could have happ…

> I encourage anyone who believes social media has divided our society like never before to read a small amount of history of the Vietnam war era.

You are missing an important point though: with machine learning, you can make sure all social media will be optimized naturally to put the maximum amount of people's hair on fire, all the time.

Outrage create clicks, replies, and with recommendations engines it's served to your eyeballs as often as possible.

Whatever manual interventions we had to make use of outrage before are like kids' play compared to the systems which automate this nowadays.

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