Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#231

Post by dosshell » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

xedeon wrote: post #27

masklinn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think detecting when a driver is falling asleep could be an amazing safety feature. Welcome to 14 years ago, which is when Toyota first introduced their DMS/DAM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_Monitoring_System More generally, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection

Not even close in terms of complexity. I used many of the "Driver Drowsiness" detection from Toyota, BMW and MBenz on my previous cars. They always had false positives, inconsistent and pretty rudimentary. What you're implying is akin to saying Nokia/Ericsson/Palm had smartphones before the iPhone 1 came along. Therefore the iPhone is a non-event. ️ The "hacker" mentioned in this article discovered these detection la…

Correction: atleast both seeing machines and smart eye has system in cars today that are more advanced. (GM, BMW etc)

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#232

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #212

echelon wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say. It's not. We're talking about people's lives. I've felt tired before and you know what I do? I nap in the parking lot. Because the remote chance I kill or maim myself or someone else is not worth the momentary discomfort. It's not fun, and sometimes people harass you, but it's far better than driving drowsy. > reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork…

> I've felt tired before and you know what I do? I nap in the parking lot. and this is exactly my point. you think being tired is exceptional, something you just "nap" and solve. you have clearly never been exhausted for months on end. I have. I have nodded off on highways, and worked with people that fell asleep at stoplights. not everyone gets to have 9 hours of sleep and then work 8 hours in a chair. > None of tha…

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Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#233

Post by nickik » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #147

awinter-py wrote: post #18

'graybox' AI products (mostly automatic but periodically return emergency control to pesky human) are going to need to model driver alertness the car certainly should warn you at lower danger threshold if it thinks you'll need more time to return to full attention (even in a zero-shame case, like for example you're checking your mirror but the car thinks there's a hazard in front) separate question of 4th / 5th amend…

The human attentiveness model is very easy: `is_attentive _ = False`. Those grayboxes probably already take more lives than they save on airplanes, and will be orders of magnitude worse on cars.

> Those grayboxes probably already take more lives than they save on airplanes, and will be orders of magnitude worse on cars.

All evidence so far point in the opposite direction. Airplanes are different, you have a highly trained pilot that has strict requirements for flight. Outperforming your avg human is far easier.

What your evidence that these system cause more harm then good?

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#234

Post by quicklyfrozen » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #212

echelon wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say. It's not. We're talking about people's lives. I've felt tired before and you know what I do? I nap in the parking lot. Because the remote chance I kill or maim myself or someone else is not worth the momentary discomfort. It's not fun, and sometimes people harass you, but it's far better than driving drowsy. > reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork…

> I've felt tired before and you know what I do? I nap in the parking lot. and this is exactly my point. you think being tired is exceptional, something you just "nap" and solve. you have clearly never been exhausted for months on end. I have. I have nodded off on highways, and worked with people that fell asleep at stoplights. not everyone gets to have 9 hours of sleep and then work 8 hours in a chair. > None of tha…

I agree -- it seems like many of the responders here are unaware of just how much privilege they have. (Or maybe they're just not in the US.) You can't just take a nap you need to pick a child up or the boss expects you at the next shift or you'll end up with DSS/Police at your door, or unemployed. Is this right? No, of course not, but it's reality. Hell, many people are driving vehicles that are very unsafe, which also poses a risk to others, for the same reason -- they have no choice.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#235

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #196

kryogen1c wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You shouldn't be driving. Period. what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say. reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork, working multiple jobs, caring for a newborn, caring for the sick. that covers millions of people, off the top of my head, without doing any research. and those are only the most black-and-white examples. more ambiguous cases include: driving from physical activity like OP men…

The 'you shouldn't be driving' commenters are people who are are either living in a privileged high-income bubble and don't understand what real life is like for most of the population, or are logical purists thinking about this issue in isolation without considering what real life is like for most of the population. Neither of those demographics has considered that their 'you shouldn't be driving, period' policy wou…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#236

Post by Mirioron » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #206

missosoup wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how real life works. It's dangerous for everyone to drive and in the future manual driving will be as legal as riding horses on highways is today. People do potentially deadly risk reward calculus all the time. And of all potentially deadly things that people regularly do to crack down on, this one would have a pretty huge negative ROI for society. This issue impacts a non-trivial percentage of the populat…

This purist notion of 'they should never be allowed to drive a car, for everyone else's protection' crumbles at the most trivial examination when you consider that you're talking about leaving millions of people jobless or in significantly worse quality of life conditions You contend that there are millions of people who knowingly drive while tired enough to fall asleep at the wheel and with a history of doing so? If…

>According to the National Sleep Foundation, about half of U.S. adult drivers admit to consistently getting behind the wheel while feeling drowsy. About 20% admit to falling asleep behind the wheel at some point in the past year – with more than 40% admitting this has happened at least once in their driving careers.

From: https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/fatigued-drivi...

Those are enormous numbers. I wonder how big the economic hit would be if none of those people drove.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#237

Post by netsharc » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

huid827 wrote: post #138

eulers_secret wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privacy is already dead (or at least, on life support). I'm personally not giving in easily, and certainly wouldn't buy a car with a camera I don't control pointed at my face. That is absurd to me. However, most people just see this only as a safety issue. They're willing to compromise a lot of privacy for a little increase in safety. That's not objectively wrong, but I disagree with it. If I could audit my records,…

What do you people do in your cars that concerns you so much from a privacy standpoint, other than pick your nose?

Do Teslas (or other cars) phone home and report where they've been? (DriveNow BMWs, which are technically rentals, do that, so they have that capability.) Have you driven anywhere where -- if you were to run for office -- you wouldn't want the public to know? Or, how would you change your behavior and places you visited if you knew you were "being watched"?

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#238

Post by ggreer » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

cma wrote: post #164

ggreer wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not pitch black inside of the vehicle. The giant LCD puts out some light. There are reflections from your headlights (bouncing off what's in front of you). There are street lights. There are other vehicle headlights. Your eyes have to see stuff for you to drive, so there must be photons hitting your face, and some of those get reflected. The external cameras have excellent low light sensitivity. If the internal…

Why do other people use illuminated IR cameras then? Aren't they looking for decent gaze direction detection, etc.? Isn't it unsafe to drive with a ton of light from the giant LCD, etc.? I would have though they would dim that and/or have a night mode with inverted UI colors.

Have you looked at footage from Tesla cameras at night? They have higher dynamic range than the human eye and they're very sensitive. They can see stars.

The LCD changes its brightness automatically. It also changes from light to dark mode (inverted UI colors) based on the time of day. Still an LCD showing black will leak some light, and as I said those cameras are pretty damn sensitive.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#239

Post by jhloa2 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #227

Silhouette wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This purist notion of 'they should never be allowed to drive a car, for everyone else's protection' crumbles at the most trivial examination when you consider that you're talking about leaving millions of people jobless or in significantly worse quality of life conditions You contend that there are millions of people who knowingly drive while tired enough to fall asleep at the wheel and with a history of doing so? If…

> Most people do not and would not drive while so tired that they knew they were likely to fall asleep while doing so For most people, the other option is to stop driving to work and then be jobless and eventually homeless, make their kids go hungry, or go bankrupt. You guys seriously seem to be completely disconnected from what reality looks like for 80%+ of the population. > In reality, only a tiny proportion of pe…

Exactly. I live in the US in a relatively typical suburb and the vast majority of people here don't really have an option on whether or not they drive. Our public transit is lacking, jobs are inflexible with WFH, and the majority of housing located close to where jobs are clustered is exorbitantly expensive.

The issue is also compounded if you work a blue collar job where it's likely that you aren't even commuting to the same place every day and need to haul tools with you.

It's really easy for people to make blanket statements that you shouldn't drive if you have a history of being tired at the wheel, but the reality is that a large portion of our population doesn't have an option.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#240

Post by Silhouette » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #227

Silhouette wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This purist notion of 'they should never be allowed to drive a car, for everyone else's protection' crumbles at the most trivial examination when you consider that you're talking about leaving millions of people jobless or in significantly worse quality of life conditions You contend that there are millions of people who knowingly drive while tired enough to fall asleep at the wheel and with a history of doing so? If…

> Most people do not and would not drive while so tired that they knew they were likely to fall asleep while doing so For most people, the other option is to stop driving to work and then be jobless and eventually homeless, make their kids go hungry, or go bankrupt. You guys seriously seem to be completely disconnected from what reality looks like for 80%+ of the population. > In reality, only a tiny proportion of pe…

For most people, the other option is to stop driving to work and then be jobless, make their kids go hungry, or go bankrupt. You guys seriously seem to be completely disconnected from what reality looks like for 80%+ of the population.

You keep writing as if this is a normal problem that everyone faces. If it were, and if everyone or even a moderate proportion of drivers were doing what you seem to be arguing is essential, then population numbers would be falling rapidly due to all the fatal accidents. As far as I can see, however, you haven't actually provided any data to back up your repeated claims about how widespread this problem is and how much damage would be caused if the relevant drivers stopped driving when they were unsafe.

You have no idea how microsleep works.

Susceptibility to microsleep is usually a result of failing to sufficient good quality sleep normally, an underlying medical problem, or both. Common conditions like obstructive sleep apnoea can be tested for. Effective treatments like CPAP machines exist. Given that OSA can have other serious health effects as well as causing the unusual tiredness that becomes a danger if you're doing something like driving or operating heavy machinery, investigation and treatment of potential sleep disorders is definitely recommended.

Of course if you simply don't get enough hours of sleep regularly, if you don't sleep well because you do things like drinking excessive amounts of alcohol in the evening, you can go to bed earlier, cut down on the booze, etc.

You (as in specifically you) could be experiencing microsleep on a regular basis and never even know it.

Given that there are many warning signs of microsleeps, one of which is being very tired all the time, and given that the subject of this thread is people driving when they know they're so tired they might fall asleep and having a history of scares caused by falling asleep at the wheel, I don't see that your attempt to make this personal has any relevance to the debate.