Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#201

Post by Silhouette » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #166

echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

> You shouldn't be driving. Period. what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say. reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork, working multiple jobs, caring for a newborn, caring for the sick. that covers millions of people, off the top of my head, without doing any research. and those are only the most black-and-white examples. more ambiguous cases include: driving from physical activity like OP men…

what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say.

It is not, and just to be absolutely clear, none of the scenarios you mentioned justifies doing it either.

Driving while tired is comparable in effect to driving while impaired by alcohol or drugs or while distracted by devices such as phones. It can easily cause sufficient delay in reaction or error in judgement to lead to a serious accident that was entirely avoidable.

Driving while tired enough to actually fall asleep is a matter of life and death. Unless you are literally doing so in order to avoid an imminent and even greater likelihood of death -- and if you are, then I humbly suggest that it is extremely unlikely that you are truly in danger of falling asleep at the wheel yourself anyway -- you are risking the lives of everyone around you, as well as your own, and you should be treated accordingly in the eyes of the law for their benefit as well as your own. In my country, that would potentially mean multiple years in jail, a driving ban and being forced to take an extended test to demonstrate your competence again before being allowed back behind the wheel. And that's if you were lucky and got pulled over before you caused an actual accident.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#202

Post by dosshell » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:32 PM UTC

iddqd wrote: post #63

ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

I hope as soon as EYES_CLOSED trigger loud alarms go off and the car slows down carefully, with or without autopilot enabled. You should probably stay off the roads if you’re having these issues and/or seek help to resolve them.

No it won't do that directly. Even if it is longer then a blink. And the reason for that is false positives. It is _very_ hard to see the difference between a person looking down and when the person is closing the eye.

The system usally have an EXTENDED_EYE_CLOSURE signal that is triggered after a certain time (together with a quality value of this signal). So not directly, but yes, close too.

But it is still tricky. What happens if you start blinking and then the camera get covered. Should it warn? It can not always warn if it loses tracking.

How should it warn? Disturbing the driver can actually cause accidents.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#203

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:35 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #111

gamblor956 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some states your medical condition would prevent you from getting (or renewing) a driver's license. You need to talk to a doctor immediately because you're an active risk to other people on the road.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure "5 hours of mountain biking", having post-ride food with buddies then driving home isn't considered a medical condition. Mostly just doing something physically tiring and having a full stomach, plus being in a monotonous 1-2 hour drive is a recipe for sleep. Thus my comment below about taking a nap and having company on the return trip.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#204

Post by cyrux004 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

chris11 wrote: post #54

xedeon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even close in terms of complexity. I used many of the "Driver Drowsiness" detection from Toyota, BMW and MBenz on my previous cars. They always had false positives, inconsistent and pretty rudimentary. What you're implying is akin to saying Nokia/Ericsson/Palm had smartphones before the iPhone 1 came along. Therefore the iPhone is a non-event. ️ The "hacker" mentioned in this article discovered these detection la…

Open Pilot's driver monitoring could be improved. After the last update I got a ton of false positives when driving at night. Nighttime would make driver monitoring more difficult, but it's also when people are more likely to be distracted.

should be fixed in 0.7.9 https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/issues/2139

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#205

Post by cyrux004 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:37 PM UTC

xedeon wrote: post #27

masklinn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think detecting when a driver is falling asleep could be an amazing safety feature. Welcome to 14 years ago, which is when Toyota first introduced their DMS/DAM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_Monitoring_System More generally, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection

Not even close in terms of complexity. I used many of the "Driver Drowsiness" detection from Toyota, BMW and MBenz on my previous cars. They always had false positives, inconsistent and pretty rudimentary. What you're implying is akin to saying Nokia/Ericsson/Palm had smartphones before the iPhone 1 came along. Therefore the iPhone is a non-event. ️ The "hacker" mentioned in this article discovered these detection la…

Super Cruise also has a DM system which from what I hear is pretty good

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#206

Post by Silhouette » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:40 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #185

joosters wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's dangerous for you to drive, don't drive. It's as simple as that. If you can't stay alert enough for more than an hour, don't drive for more than an hour. If people think that #3 is acceptable, they should never be allowed to drive a car, for everyone else's protection.

That's not how real life works. It's dangerous for everyone to drive and in the future manual driving will be as legal as riding horses on highways is today. People do potentially deadly risk reward calculus all the time. And of all potentially deadly things that people regularly do to crack down on, this one would have a pretty huge negative ROI for society. This issue impacts a non-trivial percentage of the populat…

This purist notion of 'they should never be allowed to drive a car, for everyone else's protection' crumbles at the most trivial examination when you consider that you're talking about leaving millions of people jobless or in significantly worse quality of life conditions

You contend that there are millions of people who knowingly drive while tired enough to fall asleep at the wheel and with a history of doing so?

If so, I contend that your argument is contrived and your claim is unrealistic. Most people do not and would not drive while so tired that they knew they were likely to fall asleep while doing so. For a start, such a pattern of behaviour would be suicidal. Statistically, there would be far more nasty accidents due to tiredness than actually happen.

In reality, only a tiny proportion of people drive while so tired that they might actually fall asleep at the wheel. Not only doing that but knowingly doing it when you have a history of dropping off while driving is utterly inexcusable.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#207

Post by dosshell » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:40 PM UTC

kerng wrote: post #174

ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

Maybe a warning system to tell you to stop driving might be better? I believe such systems that track your eye movement actually exist already

Yes, head, eye, eyelid, glasses and facemask trackers do exist now in cars. BMW, GM etc. Face recognition, speak detection (who is speaking) and drowsiness is coming very soon as far as I know.

The car will know when you changed driver last time etc.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#208

Post by Silhouette » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:43 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #155

serf wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you accept that response as the reasoning of a judge after an incident? I wouldn't. I'd consider it criminal negligence to get behind the wheel of a car at times when it's impossible to make a suitable effort to drive such equipment. It's not acceptable to hop into a car drunk, either. The effects aren't really that much different between the two, response-time wise.

The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to falling asleep. I've driven the family from Northern Califorina to Sourthern California quite a few times, many of them overnight. It took one instance of actually falling asleep at the wheel for a few seconds to realize "oh, that's the difference between tire…

The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to falling asleep.

Then they can follow the same rule as for overtaking: if in doubt, don't. It's not complicated. There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely. It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the next minute you're out. Anyone who can't make that determination reliably is demonstrably unfit to be in charge of a vehicle and should hand in their licence.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#209

Post by dmitriid » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:44 PM UTC

joosters wrote: post #182

missosoup wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please don't get behind the wheel if you're drowsy. I know two people with the issue that GP is talking about, and it's not what you're talking about. They're perfectly alert when they get behind the wheel. They get drowsy on longer drives like 1hr+, which is why any time we do road trips I drive for them. And all that 'pull over and take a power nap' bullshit doesn't work. It's not grounded in any science to start…

If it's dangerous for you to drive, don't drive. It's as simple as that. If you can't stay alert enough for more than an hour, don't drive for more than an hour. If people think that #3 is acceptable, they should never be allowed to drive a car, for everyone else's protection.

> If it's dangerous for you to drive, don't drive. It's as simple as that.

You've never lived in the States, have you? The absolute vast majority of anything in the States is inaccessible without a car. If you live in a city, sure, you might get by with public transport (almost universally very bad in the States). Anywhere outside the city center? Good luck getting anywhere without a car.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#210

Post by wobblyasp » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:46 PM UTC

andrei_says_ wrote: post #189

wobblyasp wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep!" is an absurd thing to say. No it isn't? We expect drivers to be able to react to situations that can arise when your driving a ton of metal and plastic. 24 hours w/o sleep is equivalent to having a BAC ~0.1%; well above the legal limit. Sure; most people aren't staying up 24 hours and going for a cross-country road trip, but you need to…

It is a sensible request but an absurd demand. Unless we first institute livable wages with sane working hours and paid commute time along with free childcare. So that survival does not demand that people abuse their bodies with lack of sleep. agreeing that externalities like house work, parenting, commuting exist, have cost, and need to be considered in a viable economy could be a great step. Doughnut economics is o…

I totally agree; there should never be a situation where an individual is required to put their life and limb on the line to provide for their families.

It still does not justify placing the life and limbs of all other people on the road in jeopardy.