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Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

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Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#191

Post by echelon »

kryogen1c wrote: post #166
echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

> You shouldn't be driving. Period. what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say. reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork, working multiple jobs, caring for a newborn, caring for the sick. that covers millions of people, off the top of my head, without doing any research. and those are only the most black-and-white examples. more ambiguous cases include: driving from physical activity like OP men…

> what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say.

It's not. We're talking about people's lives.

I've felt tired before and you know what I do? I nap in the parking lot. Because the remote chance I kill or maim myself or someone else is not worth the momentary discomfort. It's not fun, and sometimes people harass you, but it's far better than driving drowsy.

> reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork, working multiple jobs, caring for a newborn, caring for the sick.

None of that is an excuse to get behind a many thousand pound piece of equipment and not be able to control it.

> "You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep!" is an absurd thing to say.

I stand behind my assertion and hope you'll come around.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#193

Post by verytrivial »

kryogen1c wrote: post #166
echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

> You shouldn't be driving. Period. what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say. reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork, working multiple jobs, caring for a newborn, caring for the sick. that covers millions of people, off the top of my head, without doing any research. and those are only the most black-and-white examples. more ambiguous cases include: driving from physical activity like OP men…

> reasons to be tired and drive

What? You have provided a long list of reasons not to drive. It's the law and a moral requirement that you don't go out and kill other people or yourself due to incapacitation.

People drive with varying levels of alertness, yes. But if there is a reasonable, foreseeable chance you might FALL ASLEEP, then no, of course you ABSOLUTELY should not be driving and I'm sad but not surprised that this needs to be pointed out.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#194

Post by foobarian »

echelon wrote: post #112
ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

One time I was driving between cities at 2am for unavoidable reasons, and was drowsy. At one point my brain interpreted the shifting red taillights in front of me as a game of Tetris. That's when I knew it was too dangerous to continue so I pulled over (rest stop was close by) and took a 15 minute nap. I found that powernaps like this are really effective at energizing me past browning out and letting me finish the drive safely.

Measures like opening windows in the middle of winter, playing loud music, pinching, etc. stop working eventually and a nap really is the only way out.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#195

Post by root_axis »

konschubert wrote: post #179
root_axis wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people don't have that privilege. Ever known someone that works two jobs trying to make ends meet? You don't have a choice except to drive home from work.

You can try to emigrate to a richer country, you can try to reduce your expenses, you move in with relatives, you can sleep in the car. These are all terrible choices but endangering other people is also a choice.

Good luck getting people to move to other countries as a way to avoid driving home to their family and comfy bed after a hard day's work.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#196

Post by missosoup »

kryogen1c wrote: post #166
echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

> You shouldn't be driving. Period. what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say. reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork, working multiple jobs, caring for a newborn, caring for the sick. that covers millions of people, off the top of my head, without doing any research. and those are only the most black-and-white examples. more ambiguous cases include: driving from physical activity like OP men…

The 'you shouldn't be driving' commenters are people who are are either living in a privileged high-income bubble and don't understand what real life is like for most of the population, or are logical purists thinking about this issue in isolation without considering what real life is like for most of the population. Neither of those demographics has considered that their 'you shouldn't be driving, period' policy would cause a lot more damage than it would mitigate, when considered at a societal scale.

The fact that this kind of policy would do net negative damage is trivial to arrive at, and is exactly why no country has ever stopped people with this issue from driving even though the issue itself is well known. The 'shouldn't be driving' mindset is tunnel visioning and swatting a fly in your house with a nuclear missile.

The fact that anyone going against that viewpoint is getting downvoted makes it pretty clear that HN is trending towards reddit where downvotes have become an 'I disagree' button. It's been pretty sad watching this trend play out over the last couple of years.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#197

Post by randallsquared »

echelon wrote: post #145
agentdrtran wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know people are going to do it, though, so it's good to have checks on it.

I disagree wholeheartedly. This technology empowers people to make stupid decisions and rationalize them. We never had people deliberately sleeping in cars (with pillows!) before autopilot was a thing. If the kinds of people prone to make these types of decisions come to trust technology to save them, we're going to wind up in a worse spot than before the technology existed. People will rely on the tech to save them…

> This technology empowers people to make stupid decisions and rationalize them.

Not just "this" technology -- technology in general. There are always risk adjustments; airbags and seat belts had similar riskier-driving effects.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#198

Post by mtgx »

ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

Then the Autopilot should never be a thing people can enable at will. It should be something automatic like automatic-braking in case of imminent accident. And in such scenarios it should be MUCH louder than just beeping about while you doze off after 20h of not getting enough sleep.

And if it happens say 3 times in a short amount of time, it should just ull you over.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#199

Post by aeternum »

eulers_secret wrote: post #31
throwaway12757 wrote: post #3

Sadly, one of the reasons I will never buy a Tesla. The lack of privacy concerns me.

Privacy is already dead (or at least, on life support). I'm personally not giving in easily, and certainly wouldn't buy a car with a camera I don't control pointed at my face. That is absurd to me. However, most people just see this only as a safety issue. They're willing to compromise a lot of privacy for a little increase in safety. That's not objectively wrong, but I disagree with it. If I could audit my records,…

>If I could audit my records, store everything locally, and be ensured there's no way to access this data without my consent, then I'd be more into the idea. But right now... I'm just going to keep my old Prius going for as long as I can.

This really seems like the right way to go about it. If all Tesla sees are those pre-defined flags (EYES_OPEN, HEAD_DOWN, etc.) then I would consider the tradeoff worthwhile.

With an unrestricted video stream, car manufacturers can & will use that data to determine your insurance rate, whether your are using the car for personal vs. rideshare purposes, etc.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#200

Post by [deleted] »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #189
wobblyasp wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep!" is an absurd thing to say. No it isn't? We expect drivers to be able to react to situations that can arise when your driving a ton of metal and plastic. 24 hours w/o sleep is equivalent to having a BAC ~0.1%; well above the legal limit. Sure; most people aren't staying up 24 hours and going for a cross-country road trip, but you need to…

It is a sensible request but an absurd demand. Unless we first institute livable wages with sane working hours and paid commute time along with free childcare. So that survival does not demand that people abuse their bodies with lack of sleep. agreeing that externalities like house work, parenting, commuting exist, have cost, and need to be considered in a viable economy could be a great step. Doughnut economics is o…

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