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Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

reuters.com

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Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#391

Post by viktorcode »

nostromo wrote: post #194
dilap wrote: post #126

It's strange how so many in the US have adopted the mindset that it's important, for national security, to deny its citizens access to foreign social networks. Previously, when China did the same, this was widely viewed as an unfortunate restriction their freedoms -- the actions of an intrusive, authoritarian government. Now that the US is itself considering doing the same, many in the west have suddenly adopted the…

It'd be better if Chinese companies could freely operate in the American market and American companies could freely operate in the Chinese market. But China blocks American companies from their market, or extracts unfair concessions from them. So the US should do the same until they change their practices. It's similar to how countries that want peace still need militaries -- that isn't a contradiction because milita…

> But China blocks American companies from their market, or extracts unfair concessions from them.

Then this is a case for WTO, which was successfully used in the past to resolve those kind of issues.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#392

Post by viktorcode »

dannyw wrote: post #153
dilap wrote: post #126

It's strange how so many in the US have adopted the mindset that it's important, for national security, to deny its citizens access to foreign social networks. Previously, when China did the same, this was widely viewed as an unfortunate restriction their freedoms -- the actions of an intrusive, authoritarian government. Now that the US is itself considering doing the same, many in the west have suddenly adopted the…

The US is a democratic government with the rule of law, as seen in this very example with a judge blocking the order.

Nevertheless, attempts to censor media should be concerning, no?

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#393

Post by manquer »

pjmlp wrote: post #250
Spivak wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the activist spirit! But you have to realize that the incentives of legislators are to first create a strong economy and to maintain the dominance of the US tech sector. If you come to them with a plan that will seriously harm their operations then you won’t even get a meeting.

If you start making everyone suspicious of doing business with US, that dominance will slow fade away as each market tries their home grown alternatives. Yes they will suck during the first years, get barely enough customers to survive, but eventually they will get there with enough perseverance. The current administration is only making everyone aware that the globalisation days are over.

This requires long term thinking.

Neither the companies (Q-on-Q) nor the politicians (4-6 years ) have long term incentive to do lasting change by pushing unpopular policies.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#394

Post by pqhwan »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #376
pqhwan wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hard to argue that an eye-for-an-eye response is unjustified, sure. But it’s easy to see that, in a conflict, direct, equivalent retaliation is often the least strategic response. It signals desperation (which reveals weakness), and also legitimizes your opponent’s actions. It hurts your political capital (allies lose confidence in you), which is a vital tool (e.g. coordinated international show of political/tra…

What would you propose?

That would be above my paygrade, but you’d start by asking what cards the US holds on the world stage: the dollar, oil, technology (for now anyways).

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#395

Post by emptysongglass »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #333
emptysongglass wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with an autocracy is that they will not cease until any threat to their existence can be stamped out or controlled. Nations continued to hope Nazi Germany would just stop its expansion and placate Hitler until it was clear he had no intention of stopping. Last week it was discovered that an additional half a million Tibetans [1] were sent to join the Uighurs in labor camps. When do the democracies of the…

China hasn't fought a foreign war since 1979. I don't see the aggressive expansion you're claiming.

China has subsumed Tibet wholly and condemned its people to reeducation and labor camps. If this doesn't sound like lebensraum I don't know what to tell you.

Predatory loans on ports in Africa and their subsequent control by the CCP are by proxy tools of dominion.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#396

Post by jariel »

bmitc wrote: post #108
localhost wrote: post #20

Unlike some other commenters below, I don't believe that this is a privacy issue. Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is controllable by the CCP which is ideologically opposed to the United States. The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west, with control of information being advantageous to both sides in the conflict. China already blocks the western I…

Can you point out in the article or describe what you feel is the actual, explicit issue? I read the article, and I didn’t catch any concrete description of why TikTok is dangerous aside from the typically general descriptions, or at a minimum, how TikTok is any different from Facebook or YouTube or Twitter Instagram or whatever else, all of which have essentially black box recommendation algorithms. The article neve…

"and I didn’t catch any concrete description of why TikTok is dangerous aside from the typically general descriptions"

It's sadly, poorly communicated.

The CCP has entities within all Chinese corps to ensure they follow CCP policy which includes censoring individuals for all sorts of reasons. They will flag individuals for speaking out, possibly having them face arbitrary incarceration - all sorts of dystopian stuff.

This is well documented, and it's why 'WeChat' is getting banned outright.

TikTok is a slightly special case, because it's not an overt tool of CCP control, that said, anything and everything grabbed by TT can be used by the CCP for any and every reason.

Imagine if Donald Trump could order FB to provide detailed data on any Chinese user at any time, for whatever purposes.

I've referenced here several times how China literally has CCP entities within every company, this is 'normal' there I'm loathing to have to look up the reference yet again, but it's public information.

New information has come to light about ByteDance that's rather scary, from NPR:

"ByteDance CEO Zhang Yiming has made public statements showing he is "committed to promoting" the agenda of the Chinese Communist Party."

"ByteDance, according to the document, employs 130 Chinese Communist Party members at ByteDance's Beijing office."

"ByteDance employees organized a party in which they faced a Chinese Communist Party flag, "raised their right hand, clenched their fists, and reiterated their guarantee as a party member and vowed to never betray the party.""

This is pretty serious stuff in an autocratic nation with no judiciary etc.. The CCP is effectively forcing control of the entity, even on the basis of morale.

It would be one thing for Trump to be able to legally order FB for data, can you imagine the farce of him requiring FB employees to 'Pledge their fealty and loyalty to the GOP'?.

It would be better for the US Gov. - probably in concert with other nations to make some 'new rules' on this, because it's simply not going to work to have Chinese media apps in the 'rest of the world'. I would say the same for Russia and some other states.

Finally - there are simply issues of trade, on the basis alone, China wouldn't allow an American TikTok in China without censorship, and frankly, I suggest they just wouldn't allow it no matter what.

[1] https://www.npr.org/2020/09/26/917134452/new-doj-filing-tikt...

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#397

Post by jariel »

dilap wrote: post #126

It's strange how so many in the US have adopted the mindset that it's important, for national security, to deny its citizens access to foreign social networks. Previously, when China did the same, this was widely viewed as an unfortunate restriction their freedoms -- the actions of an intrusive, authoritarian government. Now that the US is itself considering doing the same, many in the west have suddenly adopted the…

China banning US apps and US banning China apps are for mostly separate reasons.

At very least consider China bans foreign apps because they won't help the CCP oppress their own citizens, which is obviously not the case in the US.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#398

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

emptysongglass wrote: post #395
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China hasn't fought a foreign war since 1979. I don't see the aggressive expansion you're claiming.

China has subsumed Tibet wholly and condemned its people to reeducation and labor camps. If this doesn't sound like lebensraum I don't know what to tell you. Predatory loans on ports in Africa and their subsequent control by the CCP are by proxy tools of dominion.

China marched into Tibet in 1950, immediately after the founding of the PRC. It was part of the Qing dynasty, and the Republic of China also considered Tibet to be part of China. It's hyperbolic to say that China is expansionist because 70 years ago, it invaded a territory that every successive Chinese government for hundreds of years has controlled or claimed.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#399

Post by jariel »

chrischen wrote: post #387
nostromo wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be better if Chinese companies could freely operate in the American market and American companies could freely operate in the Chinese market. But China blocks American companies from their market, or extracts unfair concessions from them. So the US should do the same until they change their practices. It's similar to how countries that want peace still need militaries -- that isn't a contradiction because milita…

The US does in fact do the same. It limits the high-level IP transfers so that China cannot develop and compete higher up in the technology chain. You think the fact that they manufacture the world's plastic crap and assemble iPhones is an enviable position? The reason why we're stepping it up is because China has shown that they can domestically grow successful tech and social media companies that can penetrate the…

This is a minor issue in the TikTok war.

#1 is national security. #2 is trade, level playing field i.e. tit-for-tat policies.

Secondary issues are:

a) As you say, competitive fears - but TikTok is not a threat in that sense.

b) Trump's personal ambitions and elections. TT users apparently screwed up his GOP nomination event. Likely nothing at all to do with CCP, but Trump is an emotional guy, and I think this is 'him getting back at TT' on some level.

But #1 and #2 are legit and the first-order issues. There need be nothing else to legitimize this.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#400

Post by Scapeghost »

dfischer wrote: post #291
CraigJPerry wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know. This just seems like yet another case of Republican double speak. Say one thing do a different thing that just coincidentally happens to grab power over others. Also, what is the method of using a 60 second video platform to share messaging with a crowd who will immediately scrol…

TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. TikTok also has history of recording telemetry that’s extremely alarming. Look into what is mined. Look into how algorithms get optimized to influence behavior. See a recent paper on this with using social media to shut down a power plant. Memetic warfare is real and it’s been going on in cyberspace for a w…

Kettle, meet Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, Reddit, HN.
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