Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 677 posts

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#221

Post by grawprog »

wbillingsley wrote: post #220
dilap wrote: post #126

It's strange how so many in the US have adopted the mindset that it's important, for national security, to deny its citizens access to foreign social networks. Previously, when China did the same, this was widely viewed as an unfortunate restriction their freedoms -- the actions of an intrusive, authoritarian government. Now that the US is itself considering doing the same, many in the west have suddenly adopted the…

It's not very surprising. It is a reasonable assumption that the CCP, which has expressed ideological opposition to the spread of democracy, will not be using information it gathers on US or European citizens in order to defend or promote democratic rights and freedoms globally. It's a reasonable assumption that western governments, who do have an ideological intention of spreading democracy and western-style freedom…

>will not be using information it gathers on US or European citizens in order to defend or promote democratic rights and freedoms globally.

And when was America doing this? I seem to recall the last 15 years as being full of America attacking and occupying foreign nations to claim resources.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#222

Post by wbillingsley »

bo1024 wrote: post #197
dilap wrote: post #126

It's strange how so many in the US have adopted the mindset that it's important, for national security, to deny its citizens access to foreign social networks. Previously, when China did the same, this was widely viewed as an unfortunate restriction their freedoms -- the actions of an intrusive, authoritarian government. Now that the US is itself considering doing the same, many in the west have suddenly adopted the…

Note there is a difference between saying one thinks TikTok is a national security threat to the USA, and saying one thinks the U.S. government should ban it (or so on). It's tempting to base your opinion of whether TikTok is a threat on how much you (dis)like authoritarian responses, but that's a logical fallacy.

> Note there is a difference between saying one thinks TikTok is a national security threat to the USA, and saying one thinks the U.S. government should ban it (or so on).

In this case, I'm not convinced there is - the nature of the alleged national security threat is very different from security threats in the past.

From recent actions in Hong Kong, it has been evident that the CCP will arrest and imprison people for criticising the CCP. If the suspicion is that the app gives the CCP access to vast amounts of information (including people's political views via their posts) on individual members of the public, including on the Chinese diaspora (placing relatives at risk in China or they themselves if they visit them) that is a different category of "national security threat". It's not just that it makes political or military strategy harder, or even that it foments domestic dissent (foreign propaganda of the past). The allegation is it directly puts civilians in jeopardy.

If the conclusion is that the app is such a threat (puts civilians in jeopardy to a foreign government), it would be odd to support its presence in app stores, used in playgrounds, etc.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#223

Post by aggronn »

zmmmmm wrote: post #152
soared wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They decide what content is viewed by millions of teens who will be voting in a few years. It’s not that far fetched to show them more violent content / mildly biased content / etc in order to move their political views a bit.

If they successfully do that then isn't that in fact the exact democracy working as it should? If you turn it around, you are endorsing the US government cutting off free speech specifically to manipulate people's voting opinions towards its own perception of what is "good". That seems almost exactly the opposite of the spirit of the constitution. Perhaps an appropriate response here would be to detect this manipulat…

I don't think the problem is that if/when it happens, it will be "undetectable". The issue is that if we have a polarized party-over-country political environment (which we do currently have), there is absolutely no guarantee a) that there will be a consensus about that the problem is real, that it matters, and that it should be addressed, b) that the party in power doesn't stand to benefit from interference and therefore takes no action, and c) we will have eyes looking at this seriously before it is "too late".

Protecting free speech of geopolitical competitors (China) and their economic agents (TikTok) is legitimate avenue for democratic destabilization.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#224

Post by aggronn »

YarickR2 wrote: post #208
warbaker wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously equating the two govts? Consider that, because hackernews/YC is a US company, your post is read by everyone who cares to see it. Consider what would happen if you decried the powers of the CCP on a China-based platform. Consider what would happen to you, personally, if you did so while living in China.

And what would happen, then ? Any specific examples of such things happening ?

Here's a very short list of pro-democracy or pro-human rights dissidents and what kinds of punishment we know happened to them as a result:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidents

Here's some internet-specific examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_China#A...

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#225

Post by stjohnswarts »

mtrpcic wrote: post #58
UncleMeat wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes TikTok different than literally any other website in this manner?

...being controlled by the CCP is what makes it different. All of these sites/apps have the ability to shove propaganda in the faces of millions of people, only one of them is run by a government.

The bigger thing is them dragnetting 100 million Americans for data like interests, conversations, contacts, location, private videos, etc. Not to much potential for pushing backdoors into to target individuals.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#226

Post by aggronn »

xvector wrote: post #143
mtrpcic wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...being controlled by the CCP is what makes it different. All of these sites/apps have the ability to shove propaganda in the faces of millions of people, only one of them is run by a government.

> only one of them is run by a government. And the rest are run by the ultra-rich. They care about the interests of the Americans not much more than the CCP.

Taking this as true, are you suggesting we should have, instead of our (expanding on what I think you're saying) "non-democratic capitalist ologopoly", have our important companies and institutions be run the by the CCP?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Work to improve our system rather than using our failures to normalize CCP oppression and violence.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#227

Post by stjohnswarts »

FpUser wrote: post #192
pessimizer wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hiring some intermediaries There's absolutely no need. Facebook cooperates with three-letter agencies, and we expect them to.

You seriously think that if one of those decided to influence election (for a greater good of course) you would expect direct cooperation of FB in the matter? I'd think that the guilty party should be prosecuted for doing things like that.

He's talking about handing over information, not launching a "elect the next Manchurian candidate" campaign run by the NSA.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#228

Post by bigpumpkin »

MetalGuru wrote: post #193
howlgarnish wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US companies operating in China need to follow Chinese laws, including those on censorship. Google etc are blocked because they are hosted outside China, and are not willing to cooperate in China. What I find bizarre about the Tiktok ban is that they are being banned essentially on executive whim: as far as I can tell, there are no concrete allegations, much less evidence, that they're violating any US laws.

Do you honestly believe that geopolitics don’t play a role in China banning US tech companies? You think China would allow Google if it censored search results?

China allows Bing after it censored its content.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#229

Post by conception »

wbillingsley wrote: post #220
dilap wrote: post #126

It's strange how so many in the US have adopted the mindset that it's important, for national security, to deny its citizens access to foreign social networks. Previously, when China did the same, this was widely viewed as an unfortunate restriction their freedoms -- the actions of an intrusive, authoritarian government. Now that the US is itself considering doing the same, many in the west have suddenly adopted the…

It's not very surprising. It is a reasonable assumption that the CCP, which has expressed ideological opposition to the spread of democracy, will not be using information it gathers on US or European citizens in order to defend or promote democratic rights and freedoms globally. It's a reasonable assumption that western governments, who do have an ideological intention of spreading democracy and western-style freedom…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in...

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#230

Post by fuzxi »

pleasedontbanme wrote: post #218
dilap wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair. Imagine, for example, an extremely convincing book is authored that convinces anyone that reads it that the United States government should disolve itself and its citizens should pledge fealty to China. Quite credibly, the book could be described a national security threat to the US. However, I would still argue that the book should not be banned, and that any country that wants to honestly describe itse…

It's magical thinking to believe that there could be a book that convinces people of something despite being wrong.

Yes, that's why he said "imagine".
Post reply on HN