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China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

reuters.com

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Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#391

Post by sn9 »

Fauntleroy wrote: post #290
maxbond wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Past wrongs do not justify present wrongs. It is not wrong for individuals to choose to assimilate. The deliberate and systematic destruction of other cultures - which China is engaged in on multiple fronts - is wrong.

I think the point here is, what are you going to do about it? This is unfortunately how humanity operates. It disgusts me but history shows that it is nigh inevitable.

The international community banding together to impose extremely strong economic sanctions on countries with human rights abuses commensurate with the severity and magnitude of the offenses?

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#392

Post by coldtea »

QuesnayJr wrote: post #176
coldtea wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Judging the past on the standards of the present isn't a productive line of reasoning. Well, the US still has Hawaii, Mexico, Puerto Rico, the Native Americans confined in reservations, and so on. They're not giving those back anytime soon. Those, plus, 3-4 invasions and tons of bombings of different places (sovereign countries) in the last 20 years alone. Plus a continuous such history throughtout the 20th century…

Wait, you think Native Americans are confined in reservations? Like there's a big fence around the reservation, and they can't go out? Puerto Rico can have independence any time they want. They've had several referenda, and independence has yet to win.

>Wait, you think Native Americans are confined in reservations? Like there's a big fence around the reservation, and they can't go out?

Good one, no.

I think that the lands they lived and had autonomy and their rule of law etc, have been taken from them as their ancestral places, and have been confined to the reservations.

The fact that they can move "freely" to New York or the greater South Dakota are irrelevant. It's like someone coming over, taking your house, handing you over the "right" to live and rule over the backyard, but also giving you the "freedom" to rent/buy/live in a room on their own old house if they want.

And that's with tons of shady behavior from the federal/state level even for them living there and their resources (e.g. when uranium was discovered in those places).

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#393

Post by coldtea »

yters wrote: post #198
coldtea wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so if a reformed mob boss sees other mobsters extorting people, he cannot step in and stop them because he did the same thing in the past? Reformed? LOL. > i really don't understand this kind of ethical reasoning, just sounds like pious excuses to sit on our hands It's the ethical imperative of: - not being a hypocrite, - being the change you want to see in the world, and putting your house in order first - the old…

so you are fine with allowing all the human atrocities by CCP because of what usa has done in the past? i cannot make heads or tails of this perspective as one of jewish descent, i am glad usa denounced the holocaust during ww2, and didn't use its past injustices as an excuse to remain silent

>so you are fine with allowing all the human atrocities by CCP because of what usa has done in the past? i cannot make heads or tails of this perspective

Let me reverse the question: are you fine with selective-outrage against all the human atrocities by CCP be used as a tool for foreign policy to further interests/help in new attrocities?

At the same time when those using those (to help their policies) have commited themselves, and continue to commit similar attrocities?

I'd say condemn all attrocities, don't be selective.

Else I can't make heads or tails of this perspective. It's basically "my country right or wrong, plus, I will condemnt whatever country my country's foreign interests want to target this period and ignore what others that are allies do".

>as one of jewish descent, i am glad usa denounced the holocaust during ww2

Well, not that much. For one, its businesses gave the logistics assistance that helped it go through. And few batted an eye in such cases:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/hitlers...

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/american-respons...

"The American public discovered the full extent of the Holocaust only when the Allied armies liberated the extermination and concentration camps at the end of World War II. And as historians struggled to understand what had happened, attention increasingly focused on the inadequate American response and what lay behind it. It remains today the subject of great debate."

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#394

Post by bouncycastle »

stann wrote: post #267
bouncycastle wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What language? If they have their own language, wouldn't there be plenty of jobs where they can just use their own language?

Are you pretending not to see how a language outside your tribe opens up more opportunities. The entire tribes of Africa and South America underwent the same massive foreign language reeducation now being demonized

No, I just want to understand. What opportunities exactly?

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#395

Post by chillacy »

pc86 wrote: post #295
chillacy wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s how the game is played afaik... in Snowden’s book he mentions how the CIA operatives bribe assets in foreign countries (and himself witnessing a disastrous operation). The prime minister of Singapore famously called the CIA out on it: https://mothership.sg/2017/02/cias-failed-attempt-to-bribe-l...

Are there any details of the operation Snowden witnessed? I don't think I'm familiar with that and would be interested in reading/watching it.

It's worth picking up his book and reading it firsthand. It's full of very interesting stories, the media coverage of him doesn't do justice to the real person.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#396

Post by yowlingcat »

sitkack wrote: post #388
yowlingcat wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would those words be?

https://www.masterresource.org/carter-jimmy/jimmy-carter-was... https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/01/03/energy-independence-a-s...

Thanks for the context. I think the second one explains what you're trying to say better.

I think one can agree with the spirit of Carter's message while remaining skeptical of how practically it's stood the test of time. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, doesn't the last line of your second article seems to agree with GP's point? Can you describe what you're trying to say in more detail?

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#397

Post by chillacy »

sandworm101 wrote: post #221
chillacy wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was reading an account from the Roman Empire about parents begrudgingly using the imperial language while their kids grew up completely “Roman”. Then I reflected that if you go back far enough we all have a great^N parent who was in this situation. Someone else in their reply mentioned Hawaii and the US but even Hawaii was unified by force by King Kamehameha. I’ve come to an uneasy acceptance of the fact that we’re…

>> if you go back far enough we all have a great^N parent who was in this situation. 'Everyone is a victim' is a cop out. The fact that some ancestor of mine was probably conquered by vikings doesn't mean that I shouldn't criticize china for doing the same thing today. Nor do I feel like a conqueror because some other ancestor was one of those vikings. Look to the deep past for lessons. Don't point to the deep past a…

Sure, we can criticize, but just keep in mind cycles of criticism and acceptance are the norm in the past. That many of us have forgotten the outrage and moved to acceptance is only further demonstration of this pattern.

Will the future be different? Maybe.. technology (especially communications tech) might be the thing that lets us break the cycle.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#398

Post by aww_dang »

actuator wrote: post #293
platinumrad wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call it "whataboutism" if you must, but I think it's strange and counterproductive to ignore the elephant in the room when it comes to influence and control over popular media.

Although I agree with the sentiment that US has a lot of soft power influence, I would argue that most of it is just US capitalism shining at its best. I think the best example of this is WW2 related content like movies. In France public perception of who won them World War 2 changed from Soviet Union in 1940s to US in 2000s. [1] One major difference in US soft power is, they don't censor media critical of them to an…

>One major difference in US soft power is, they don't censor media critical of them to an extent even close to what CCP does.

Agreed. The CCP's censorship is an exhibition of weakness.

While it is currently tumultuous, there's an argument that the introspective and critical nature of US culture is a strength.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#399

Post by aww_dang »

madenine wrote: post #243
smithza wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff. Thinking of Lebron James who hypocritically spoke up about BLM and not about human rights abuses in China[1]. We cannot place our hopes in capitalism to deal with these human-rights atrocities, even though there is much the NBA could do to use their financial power to influence the region and demand change. MLK would use boycotts to force racist busi…

> Thinking of Lebron James who hypocritically spoke up about BLM and not about human rights abuses in China[1]. I don't understand this take. Why does LeBron James have to address human rights in China before he, a Black American, can address human rights abuses against Black Americans in America?

I don't see it as an either or proposition. He can speak up for both, but he chose to take an apologist stance on HK. The NBA made fans remove or cover up their HK freedom t-shirts.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#400

Post by aww_dang »

bobbyz wrote: post #367
actuator wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the British drawn India-Pakistani border with the most important Sikh holy site in muslim majority Pakistan As far as I understand for that at least, the divisions/districts were divided based on religion, because that's what the demand of the leaders who wanted Pakistan was. So Pakistan got every Muslim majority district on the west of the current Indian state. Is it possible the Sikh holy site you are talking abo…

Throwing rocks from a glass house. Not sure how these claims can be made while the Native Americans languish in poverty and alcoholism.

This is an unfair generalization that borders upon racism.
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