Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians • Hacker News Board

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#201

Post by rusticpenn » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 6:56 PM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #196

teachrdan wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> generations of segregated reproduction have selected for higher IQ in the higher castes There is no natural selection going on here. People are born into a caste and, for all intents and purposes, their caste identity is fixed for the rest of their lives. The idea that these people have somehow developed a "higher IQ" over "generations" simply by being born to a particular caste makes no sense. Furthermore, the arg…

There is reproductive selection in that people from higher castes will tend to mate with people from higher castes and vice-versa.

higher caste != intelligent (or high Iq)

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#202

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

TuringNYC wrote: post #181

buran77 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw the situation a bit differently, the upper caste guys would have no problem working with the lower caste ones simply because this meant they never had to work. They would pawn off all the work on the others and order them around. And if I tried to force any work on them it just backfired since they just shoved it down the throats of their "slaves". Even trying to embarrass them in a meeting didn't work. With al…

As a New Analyst, I've seen this with Westerners also (nothing to do with "caste" in the specific sense), trying to boss around others and assert dominance based on their University or assumed better training. I think it happens in a lot of circumstances, even if there isnt a name for it in the West.

I'm sure there's an -ism for most of the discrimination you see in the west.

Elitism would be the term I'd use in this case.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#203

Post by sremani » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 6:58 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #110

_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

I don't think it prudent to replicate it in nations with no connection to Hinduism. Your strategy would reinforce the awareness of caste status. I don't think non-Indians would even be able to discriminate by caste. Discrimination against Indians is perfectly possible of course.

Even though Caste is associated with Hinduism. There is a huge section of Muslims and Christians who practice a derived version of Caste system in Indian subcontinent.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#204

Post by neilk » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 6:58 PM UTC

Slightly offtopic, but the recent book "Caste" by Isabel Wilkerson explores the concept as a frame for understanding social problems, beyond just India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Disc...

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#205

Post by SkyBelow » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #142

_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

Out of curiosity: Could an Indian of a lower caste change their name, or be named differently at birth, as to "fake" their way into a different caste?

It would require far more than just changing one's name. It is somewhat like the difference between old money and new money, except in this case the lower case person doesn't even have the ability to buy the training and coaching that new money is able to (to say nothing of likely having to deal with many more poverty related issues). Accents, speech patterns, how you hold yourself, how you react to people interacting with you based on both their situation and their own caste will all be different.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#206

Post by luckylion » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #109

_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

It's important that companies are aware of this, take complaints seriously, inform their Indian employees that this is not acceptable, explain where and how to report this, and offer training to overcome these prejudices. And have clear sanctions: if someone does discriminate against lower-caste colleagues, and especially when they abuse their power against them (by denying promotion, keeping them away from prestigio…

> And have clear sanctions: if someone does discriminate against lower-caste colleagues, and especially when they abuse their power against them (by denying promotion, keeping them away from prestigious projects, etc), then the abuser should be demoted or fired.

I agree, but as usual, I'm confused: should they not be demoted or fired when they abuse their power to discriminate against someone who is not Indian? Or is Indian, but of an equal or higher caste?

I totally agree with what you're saying, but the way you say it implies that everything else is okay.

> If you want to work in an environment where caste matters and the caste hierarchy is observed, do not work for a western company.

We have castes in the West as well, we just call them classes and you can, theoretically, transition from one to another, but generally you won't and everybody is quite aware of each others class and the nuances within. It's in everything, the way you speak, dress, what you eat and drink, heck, even your name is usually a statement of class.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#207

Post by lowend » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

pringles_red wrote: post #104

I don't get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted. I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due…

Read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=24552608&goto=item%3Fi...

reservation system is not the issue. It's politicized heavily. For people who for generations have been fucked with and been given no opportunity to do better cannot suddenly do good for themselves and their family without help. This is not a problem.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#208

Post by breitling » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

signal11 wrote: post #170

_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

It’s not bizarre or far-fetched at all. Just a couple weeks ago (!) a woman named Rashmi Agochiya posted some astonishingly vile rants about Dalits on Facebook. Here’s a tweet with some of the comments she posted: https://twitter.com/ahariharan/status/1304042539238846464?s=... This lady has now deleted or hidden her social media accounts, but she seems to lives and work in the Midwest.

...and what came of the report to her employer?

Can't imagine any moral company tolerating this

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#209

Post by triceratops » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

anu7df wrote: post #174

triceratops wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? > Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. It's not right to assume that someone may not be good at their current job because they may (in your mind) have benefited from some "affirmative action" program far in the past (John Doe is 20+ years into his c…

> It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? No. Only my observation from when I went to IIT for my undergrad about 2 decades ago. At that time they even used to have remedial classes for students who came in through the reservation system. Again, I would like to emphasize that not all of those students were having difficulties coping with the workloa…

> they even used to have remedial classes for students who came in through the reservation... it is not uncommon for the general category students to crumble under pressure as well.

So it sounds like IIT is generally a tough place to study at, regardless of how you get in. Surely you would agree that how someone got in isn't really relevant after they've been working for 2 decades?

> in a class of mostly 4.0 students you admit a few 2.0 students with affirmative action, it is not difficult to see how they would have trouble in class. If they also get demotivated and end up not getting much from that education, some of them may not do so well in work life either.

Again, you're making a lot of assumptions. I can argue the other way too - people for whom studies go easy don't learn to work hard. Because of their high GPA and belief in their own intelligence, they may act in an arrogant, entitled, prima-donna-ish way and may not do so well in work life where they have to deal with others. (I don't believe this, I'm just pointing out the problem with making assumptions like you're doing).

You don't know why those "2.0 students" struggled. Maybe it was the first time they studied at an institution with such high standards. Maybe they felt an undercurrent of hostility from their classmates who thought they're not worthy of being there and that affected them mentally.

Look at the present state of things. Don't try to extrapolate from incomplete evidence from a long time ago.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#210

Post by t-writescode » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 7:08 PM UTC

rvn1045 wrote: post #99

_jgdh wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it requires a lot self awareness and external education to learn about your own privilege and how difficult (relatively) other people have it. It's not easy.

It really does not in a place like India where differences between the rich and the ultra poor are everywhere to witness. You cannot miss it. 90% of the country is living in poverty.

Buddha may have been able to tell things were a bit weird for him as an aristocrat, but not everyone has that level of introspection.

It’s very easy to look at all one’s own struggles and think them similar to someone else’s struggles, even if that other person has struggled far more.

If it’s 1% possible to achieve something and you did achieve it, you may think you and the person for whom it is 0.01% possible are similar, but they’ve had experiences and struggles you can’t fathom. I use the general ‘you’, maybe not you-you.