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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#101

Post by higerordermap »

karterk wrote: post #51

I wanted to offer another perspective for this trend: Many states in India, especially in the South, have affirmative action policies that make it really hard for these people to find good jobs or colleges in India. So they head out and prosper in the US.

The attitude is "We don't get any benefit from government here, unlike other castes, we have to study well and settle abroad". That is also expectation from families.

The above comment is downvoted, maybe for sounding pro-upper-caste? But the statement is true.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#102

Post by barry-cotter »

jerzyt wrote: post #45

What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. US is oblivious to this system, very few people have any understanding of this, yet it affects success in the corporate world. Obviously, there's enough Indian presence in the business to influence it, but it's flying under the US corporate culture. I've worked with many Indian coworkers in the tech industry, and now I'm rethinking some of the co…

> What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US.

There are no overseas communities of majority Indian subcontinental origin that maintain rigid caste distinctions. Not even Mauritius which is majority ethnic Indian or Fiji or Guyana where they’re about half the population. Caste will not be maintained in America for the same reason no ethnic group maintains itself without religious endogamy or continuing immigration; People socialize and mate with those they spend time with unless there are powerful reasons not to. All will be assimilated in time.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#103

Post by mcv »

My dad recently told me how during the 1980s they had two Indians working together on a project. Turns out one of them was upper-caste, and the other lower-caste, and the upper-caste basically refused. Was impossible to work with, because he was offended that he had to work with a lower-caste person.

If this attitude discrimination of Dalits by upper-castes is really so common in non-Indian companies, it sounds like it would be irresponsible to put upper-caste Indians in a position of authority over Dalits. Maybe they need additional training to help them overcome their prejudices, but this sort of discrimination and bullying should really not be acceptable. Of course if you blindly assume all upper-caste Indians are like that, it would ironically lead to discrimination of those upper castes. Education is probably the better option.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#104

Post by pringles_red »

I don't get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted.

I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due to fact that they believe that one caste is superior to another, they are doing it because they are able to sympathise with the plight of other unreserved Indians in India.

How it is to be unreserved in India: Any unreserved Indian who wants to stay in India is basically agreeing to working two to three times as hard as a reserved Indian to get into any government jobs/colleges while at the same time their tax money is being used to fund these. Also complaining about caste system or reservation can land you in jail (for offending minorities) and the politicians use reserved people as their vote-banks providing them even more privileges for votes. This system is only going to get worse for upper castes. So even your future generations have to work two - three times as hard because of their caste. Sounds like a good deal?

Also reservation benefits only rich reserved people not the poor ones who actually need help because everyone of the caste regardless of their economic circumstances can take advantage of reservation. My grandparents were literally rag pickers at one point in their life and now they are in the middle class I'm not sure how this is due to their caste and not their hard-work. The system is utterly disrespectful to anyone in the upper class. Thus, the higher amount of immigration is of the upper class anyways.

P.S. - By upper caste I mean the "General" unreserved people and "SC ST OBC" etc are the reserved quotas.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#105

Post by C1sc0cat »

barry-cotter wrote: post #102
jerzyt wrote: post #45

What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. US is oblivious to this system, very few people have any understanding of this, yet it affects success in the corporate world. Obviously, there's enough Indian presence in the business to influence it, but it's flying under the US corporate culture. I've worked with many Indian coworkers in the tech industry, and now I'm rethinking some of the co…

> What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. There are no overseas communities of majority Indian subcontinental origin that maintain rigid caste distinctions. Not even Mauritius which is majority ethnic Indian or Fiji or Guyana where they’re about half the population. Caste will not be maintained in America for the same reason no ethnic group maintains itself without religious endogamy o…

Your being naive Caste discrimination does exit in communities overseas in the UK for example.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#106

Post by golergka »

brazzy wrote: post #73
golergka wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the main human drives in life is to provide for their children. Why shouldn't you be able to spend all the resources you can to give your kids advantage? What I find curious about this discussion, which often occurs when people discuss what advantages are fair and unfair, estate tax and the like, is that they perceive each human being as a completely independent actor. Whereas for me, at least, it's more natur…

> Why shouldn't you be able to spend all the resources you can to give your kids advantage? Because it's absolutely toxic for society as a whole if inequality gets amplified over generations. Estate tax should ideally be 100% above a reasonable cap. And by "reasonable" I mean a sum definitely below "never needs to work to support a middle class lifestyle". > If the first generation achieved success, should it be rese…

Well, that almost looks a classic conflict of interests of a society versus interests of an individual, but only at the first glance. Because when you dig in, you realise that it's the most successful and capable individuals that are most interested in building something for their children and next generations of their family — and that's the most marginalised and useless ones that have to get the most by redistribution. And the more you enact redistribution policies in one country or another, the more those types of individuals self-select. The ones who're most able to build and create something will always be able to leave. Ones who complain about disadvantages, on the other hand — those you're stuck with, I'm afraid.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#107

Post by Gibbon1 »

coliveira wrote: post #53
golergka wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the main human drives in life is to provide for their children. Why shouldn't you be able to spend all the resources you can to give your kids advantage? What I find curious about this discussion, which often occurs when people discuss what advantages are fair and unfair, estate tax and the like, is that they perceive each human being as a completely independent actor. Whereas for me, at least, it's more natur…

In these countries, what survives more than anything else is political connections. If your family has the right friends you can do well, even after big setbacks.

Or just your family knows how to teach you how move in the upper culture. I always come back to how much of life is a confidence game. You can often get pretty far if all you have is knowing how to play the game.

I often think people that grow up in disadvantaged circumstances have a major problem a) Learning the wrong game. Sometimes one that ultimately gets you in trouble. b) not knowing how to play the other game. The one that unlocks all the opportunities.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#108

Post by einpoklum »

LatteLazy wrote: post #19

The core issue in market heavy economies is that people with money make money and everyone else doesn't. Being smart and hard working and having poor parents means you will be poor. Being dumb and lazy with rich parents means you will be rich. Maybe with 3 or 4 full generations of nothing but hard work and luck you might make it up from working to middle class. Maybe. This is never really discussed directly. Only usi…

This is definitely a problem, but not just the mobility is the problem.

If the economy is organized so that a small minority is rich, and the vast majority is poor, then even if the fraction of people of different castes, races, genders, whatever at each echelon of wealth is similar. And even if you have a good chance = uniform-distribution draw - of ending up as "one of the rich" - that chance can never be anything but lousy for the vast majority of people.

(Also, social inequality skews the focus of production and consumption so that things masses of people need and want just aren't available.)

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#109

Post by mcv »

_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

It's important that companies are aware of this, take complaints seriously, inform their Indian employees that this is not acceptable, explain where and how to report this, and offer training to overcome these prejudices.

And have clear sanctions: if someone does discriminate against lower-caste colleagues, and especially when they abuse their power against them (by denying promotion, keeping them away from prestigious projects, etc), then the abuser should be demoted or fired.

If you want to work in an environment where caste matters and the caste hierarchy is observed, do not work for a western company.

Also, maybe there should be some education projects and affirmative action for those Dalit communities.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#110

Post by raxxorrax »

_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

I don't think it prudent to replicate it in nations with no connection to Hinduism.

Your strategy would reinforce the awareness of caste status.

I don't think non-Indians would even be able to discriminate by caste. Discrimination against Indians is perfectly possible of course.

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