Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#571

Post by jsjohnst » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 12:55 PM UTC

mmis1000 wrote: post #561

jsjohnst wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need to connect to the mac and install the apps every 7 days Except you don’t! I really recommend looking at AltStore before judging the convenience based on how things were years ago when you last had the whim to look.

Isn't is literally show the `7 Days` on their home page? Except this time, they bypass the physical connect requirement with wifi.

The AltStore app refreshes automatically in the background, so as long as your phone is on the same wifi once per seven days, that’s it. You don’t need to do anything else. Try reading past the fold and you’ll find direct quotes like this:

> AltStore will periodically attempt to refresh your apps in the background, and you can always manually refresh your apps from within AltStore.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#572

Post by pjmlp » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

throwaway13337 wrote: post #115

jmpman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

I've seen this comment specifically from you come up a lot in all the apple vs epic conversations. This is whataboutism for sure. It moves the discussion to a less constructive, more re-hashed place. Consoles are different because they're not sold as general purpose computing devices and do not have the market penetration size that iOS does. There is a great argument for allowing all consumers to install whatever sof…

What market penetration?

iOS is only 20% of the global smartphone market, PS 4 outperforms it on world market share.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#573

Post by pjmlp » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 12:58 PM UTC

jfim wrote: post #388

kirykl wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This applies to any business that operates a store, and a business that sells a product within that store. Replace software with retail in your example, it doesn't sound so abnormal "Walmart can, at will, remove your entire line of potato chips from your (their) customers and your existance in their stores is just gone."

Sure, but at the same time one could sell their product in different stores, or even D2C online. The store analogy also has very limited switching costs, for example if Walmart stops selling brand X of potato chips, it's inconvenient but not impractical to go out of one's way to buy them at Target. It would be different if buying potato chips at Target would involve throwing out everything one has bought at Walmart a…

Android store, Jolla store, Tizen store, Samsung Store, Amazon store.

Epic's problem is that they want a Epic Store on other people's devices.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#574

Post by m3kw9 » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 1:39 PM UTC

greycol wrote: post #401

m3kw9 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correction: nothing to offer to developers that breaks the terms in such purposeful way. Completely premeditated move from Epic deserve exactly what Epic expects

I agree, it's just like when I put in a contract with my employees that they're not allowed to talk about their salaries. If they talk about their salaries then boom! Fired! Or when I put in the contract tips go straight to the business. You don't put your tips in at the end of the night, Boom! Fired! You can't expect me to keep you employed if you don't follow the contract. Hell I've even had some of them come up to…

You can also make the exaggerated example if you look at someone the wrong way you get fired for harassment. The point is your analogies is not even close to what is happening in the Apple vs Epic case

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#575

Post by danesparza » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 1:43 PM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #219

danesparza wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think Epic Games and the affiliates didn't think through the ramifications for the actions taken by Epic Games. Epic Games is free to build their own phone and app store platform. There is nothing stopping them. Other than the risk that people don't want to buy into whatever they build. But Apple had the same risks. If this is truly a good faith negotiation (and not a stunt) on the part of Epic Games, t…

Epic isn't negotiating with Apple. They are suing Apple.

Objectively speaking, all negotiations seek to bring about change. The parties use whatever tools they have at their disposal and start the conversation wherever their experience, tools, and ethical bent leads them.

Epic games (AFAIK) started (the public portion of) this conversation by violating terms that Apple set forth in a contract that Epic games agreed to. Apple is defending their contract with their behavior. They have the stronger position unless the law comes to the aid of Epic games (which is what I'm assuming Epic games hopes to induce).

Sidenote: The only law capable of negating a contract is a bankruptcy. Neither party has declared bankruptcy. I have a feeling the law is going to be on Apple's side too.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#576

Post by danesparza » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

nafey wrote: post #515

munificent wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a sociologist, lawsuits are simply another form of negotiation.

Qualitatively different. Apple's cant risk looking weak here because this issue went to court. Epic could have had an out of court settlement with much better terms.

I didn't say that Epic games was negotiating WELL. :-) I just said "it's a negotiation" that Epic games happens to be losing at the moment.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#577

Post by SergeAx » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 1:47 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #559

SergeAx wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the author of HN reader app, which was twice rejected for not applying censorship inside his app [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24410652

That example is pure bullshit. Apple and Google have banned applications about COVID since the world was littered with apps and scams trying profit from the COVID pandemic. The author is making a news app that's promoting COVID articles and content, so it got instant banned on sight. That's super clear cut and straightforward even though he doesn't like that. You really shouldn't call that censorship. You're making a…

The app is just a viewer for this very website we are having a discussion at. And yes, there are articles on this site with COVID in text or even heading (oops, I did it again!). Banning app for showing this content among other is literally a demand for implementing China-like keyword censorship.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#578

Post by lolsal » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

subsection1h wrote: post #464

lolsal wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic caused their own pain here, sure but What other way can we actually get a semi open platform that we're not being taxed on? As an Apple user, the whole point here is that it's not an open system. I just can't get riled up over a developer not following the rules of a platform. I use Apple because the Apple ecosystem is valuable to me - the store, the SSO, the Apple ID, the UI/UX, the hardware - all of it. I do…

Hacker News in 2020: Where "hackers" prefer closed systems and perceive no value in developers who don't want to "play nice" with closed systems.

It's a fallacy to think you can play gatekeeper regarding 'hacking' just because I (or more generally the HN audience) like and value one phone ecosystem over another. Surely you knew that already though, right?

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#579

Post by lolsal » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:33 PM UTC

curiousmindz wrote: post #447

lolsal wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic caused their own pain here, sure but What other way can we actually get a semi open platform that we're not being taxed on? As an Apple user, the whole point here is that it's not an open system. I just can't get riled up over a developer not following the rules of a platform. I use Apple because the Apple ecosystem is valuable to me - the store, the SSO, the Apple ID, the UI/UX, the hardware - all of it. I do…

Let's forget about this current case, and think in general: Do you think that the Apple ecosystem could get better? Surely, there are improvements that would be a net positive for you? Now, what if what Epic is doing results in an improvement in the Apple ecosystem? Ultimately, you can only say that this case has no value to you if you can reason that there is no way that it will make things better for you, and that'…

> Ultimately, you can only say that this case has no value to you if you can reason that there is no way that it will make things better for you, and that's a very tough thing to prove without a crystal ball :)

You're inverting the relationship. These things have value because I don't have to care about side loading garbage IPAs or devs injecting malware, etc. etc. I don't care about sone random developer's "improvements". Just give me what I paid for and that's all I care about.

Hint: Part of what I pay for is: "play nice with apple, because that's what I expect."

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#580

Post by lolsal » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

grumple wrote: post #437

lolsal wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic caused their own pain here, sure but What other way can we actually get a semi open platform that we're not being taxed on? As an Apple user, the whole point here is that it's not an open system. I just can't get riled up over a developer not following the rules of a platform. I use Apple because the Apple ecosystem is valuable to me - the store, the SSO, the Apple ID, the UI/UX, the hardware - all of it. I do…

As an Apple user, I think you’re crazy. It being locked down is the worst part about it and the main reason I’m considering moving off Apple in the future. Also as a developer deploying anything Apple-related is a pain.

> As an Apple user, I think you’re crazy. It being locked down is the worst part about it and the main reason I’m considering moving off Apple in the future.

If it makes you feel any better, I have never, ever, felt "locked down" in the Apple ecosystem. We must live very different lives because I never think about my phone - I think about messaging people, sending emails, looking something up on the web, getting directions, etc. Things I like and enjoy using are there and amazing. I don't have to worry about scummy devs like Epic, or side-loading malware because it's cool, or jailbreaking so I can put drop shadows on random things. If you need those features you should have picked a device that supported those features. I don't, so I don't care about things like that because they bring me no value.

Managing your devices and apps is expensive in terms of time and attention costs. It's not worth it to me.

> Also as a developer deploying anything Apple-related is a pain.

I would challenge this or at least dismiss this as an opinion - I have apps in both the iOS and Android stores and deploying on iOS is a breeze compared to Android.