Why Johnny Won't Upgrade • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#151

Post by cringepirate » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:08 AM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #148

cringepirate wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making excuses for ignorance is simply promoting learned helplessness. Yes I appreciate there are edge cases such as the mentally handicapped. However realistic I am talking about the majority of the population which are capable of looking after themselves. Again this much like another reply I received. You are making it an all or nothing scenario. Realistically it will be a combination of regulation and people start…

When it comes to technology the majority of the population is not capable of looking after themselves. And it won't be this way for a very, very long time.

Well it will go on longer if people are encouraged by those that are capable to stay ignorant.

Also Rome wasn’t built in a day.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#152

Post by Iolaum » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:14 AM UTC

taneq wrote: post #15

cs702 wrote: post #8

As a user of software, I couldn't agree more with the OP that automatic updates: > should always keep the user centric > should be incremental and security or bug fixes only > should never update a user interface without allowing the previous one to be used as the default > should never be used to install telemetry or spyware or to re-enable it if it was previously switched off > should never be used to install other…

So to sum that up, Johnny Won't Upgrade because like as not, the writers of the updates are The Enemy.

That's why its best to find free software solutions for your computing needs where possible. The options a user has on free software solutions discourage that behaviour.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#153

Post by FridgeSeal » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:15 AM UTC

cringepirate wrote: post #118

tomc1985 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to That will never happen as long as software continues to be regarded as a "cost center" That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users That will never happen as long as evangelists keep pushing this doctrine that more updates, more features, mor…

No you got it the wrong way around. The power is in the hands of the user. > That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to The user has a choice not to use products that are made by companies that don't respect them. > That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users The user can simply stop…

> The user has a choice not to use products that are made by companies that don't respect them.

Yeah, much like how I get a choice to not use Jira at work, or to not use Facebook Messenger or not use LinkedIn right? The argument that everything ultimately comes down to individual user choice ignore so many externalities that it’s borderline unrealistic.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#154

Post by a_imho » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:16 AM UTC

jpadkins wrote: post #95

Software version control by users is going the way of ham radio and people who repair their own cars. Not completely extinct, but such a small set of technically capable people that in practice it doesn't matter. Real users don't know and don't care about software versions. They want computing experiences that "just work". They don't care or know about where the software runs, if there is telemetry, what the underlyi…

Disagree that people don't care. Maybe not all the time, but sooner or later everybody experiences a bad update (bad timing, crashing app, consuming a mobile plan costing $$$).

Agree that most are powerless to fight it but the worst offenders are working hard to keep the status quo.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#155

Post by infinityplus1 » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:20 AM UTC

comradesmith wrote: post #79

wvenable wrote: post #4

Some automatic updates should really just be different products. The most obvious one at the moment is Android Firefox is getting a big automatic update that, for a lot of people, will be a very big downgrade and an unfriendly UI change. But Mozilla doesn't want to maintain security patches for X different products. And that's true of most vendors. This model of computing where all users are always on the latest vers…

I updated and didn't realise a big release was on its way. I hate it and I've swapped to Brave

I did the opposite. I switched from Brave to Firefox. Only reason I was running Brave till now was because Firefox's UI felt slow to me. Now I can get real ublock origin and the UI isn't laggy. Even if the features are less than before, it can replace Brave browser whose only use was "A browser that isn't Google Chrome, having adblocking support".

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#156

Post by stan_rogers » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:22 AM UTC

stubish wrote: post #141

Taring everything with the same brush. There was a time, not so long ago, when it was impossible to install Windows over the Internet because so many other machines were compromised and your machine would, with certainty, also end up compromised before it had gotten as far as applying the latest service pack. Then we got automatic updates, and we all breathed a sigh of relief because things got better . We had empiri…

Now explain how fucking about with features or UIs makes sense.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#157

Post by FraKtus » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:23 AM UTC

One example is Parallels Desktop, they constantly mail me to upgrade but there is no information what system version they run on. So I downloaded the installer and just launched it. The installer did delete my previous version without asking any question and I was just left with the option to buy the upgrade...

I had to restore a backup to find back my working version. Not sure sure if there are as many extreme examples: an installer that deletes the previous version, remove a valid perpetual license, without asking!

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#158

Post by rhn_mk1 » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:26 AM UTC

mattnewton wrote: post #142

stubish wrote: post #141

Taring everything with the same brush. There was a time, not so long ago, when it was impossible to install Windows over the Internet because so many other machines were compromised and your machine would, with certainty, also end up compromised before it had gotten as far as applying the latest service pack. Then we got automatic updates, and we all breathed a sigh of relief because things got better . We had empiri…

It’s funny you mention Microsoft, because I have a windows machine to play games on. It regularly updates itself and re-enables telemetry I had disabled, shows spammy news in the start menu and ads for Microsoft products in my toolbar, and reinstalls skype every time I try to get rid of it.

Keeping Windows behind a whitelist firewall seems to be a good idea.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#159

Post by Lio » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:27 AM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #8

As a user of software, I couldn't agree more with the OP that automatic updates: > should always keep the user centric > should be incremental and security or bug fixes only > should never update a user interface without allowing the previous one to be used as the default > should never be used to install telemetry or spyware or to re-enable it if it was previously switched off > should never be used to install other…

I’m not sure it’s even to do with economics. Certain people just like to mess about with UI because changes excite them.

Slack recently moved the profile settings from the left of the screen to the right.

It hasn’t been replaced by anything on the left.

Someone just decided to move it, they probably have some pseudo science about “design weight balance” to justify moving it.

Really it’s change for change’s sake.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#160

Post by bilegeek » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:29 AM UTC

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #112

bilegeek wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's safe to say so - I don't wanna jeopardize your methods here - how did you obtain it? As far as I can tell, normal consumers can't buy them "legit", but they are "illegitimately" resold anyways, which makes rejection of their "validity" during activation a possibility (assuming Microsoft finds out, of course).

It's not illegal to resell software (at least in the EU).

Illegal != breach of contract. They control the activation servers, they can just refuse activation if they felt you've violated the contract.