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Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

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Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#141

Post by quickthrowman »

chrisseaton wrote: post #111
rdmirza wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare those values to your own weight, and pay attention when you hear someone’s weight to see if it matches your heuristic.

> pay attention when you hear someone’s weight to see if it matches your heuristic I don't think I've ever heard an adult male ever mention their own weight in public. You can see why it'd be hard to estimate when you don't have any data.

You’ll have to get a job at a county fair running the weight guessing attraction to get enough data. There’s no other way to do it, it’s how we all figured out how to estimate the weight of a human. I’ll call my friend Chucky, he’ll get you a gig in a traveling carnival for the summer.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#142

Post by vmception »

guscost wrote: post #131
vmception wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you care about hearing a serious response, I think most Americans would agree that this protocol is on the wrong side of the line, but at the same time not thoroughly murderous in intent. It sounds like an extreme tactic that should be re-thought, and it is perfectly legal and normal for me to share this opinion or organize votes for change. In China there are “execution vans” with no other purpose even suggested:…

> In China there are “execution vans” with no other purpose even suggested: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van

From your article

> Liu was convicted

> a reprieve after appealing

> given a retrial

Your entire article describes convicted death row prisoners, whether we agree with or respect China's due process at all.

Why did you think it bolstered your argument to talk about Chinese due process in an article about a lack of due process in the US? beCaUsE wE cAN taLk AbOut iT? that's gold, its really the icing on the cake.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#144

Post by GhostVII »

JohnBooty wrote: post #140
GhostVII wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is false, police are not injecting people with Ketamine. As the article says, paramedics are.

This is technically true and misses the point. Police are ordering paramedics to inject it. (edit: to be clear, I am saying that yes, ordering somebody else to do it is morally equivalent to doing it yourself... if it's wrong to do it yourself, it's just as wrong to order somebody else to do it) Pointing out that the police aren't injecting it themselves is like pointing out that [insert name of murderous dictator he…

There is a huge difference between police injecting it and police ordering trained paramedics to inject it. The comment I was responding to was implying that it was dangerous for police to administer Ketamine because they are not trained, and I was saying that is not an issue since they are not the ones administering it.

I don't think police should be ordering EMS to administer Ketamine, but even if they are that is far different from doing it themselves.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#145

Post by corty »

GhostVII wrote: post #132

Pretty much everywhere in the world, paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient. Ketamine is used in many places (the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Austria) by paramedics, because it is very safe relative to other sedatives. So the main concern should whether or not police are ordering EMS to administer it when it is not actually required (police do not administer it themselves), since I don't th…

Paramedics here are only allowed to do so if a doctor is not available and there is an emergency waranting using medication. After giving such medication, close monitoring and hospitalisation is mandatory, except if the physician arrives in time and releases the patient (which is very rare in such circumstances). The article never talks about a doctor arriving, an EKG, hospitalisation or any other appropriate measures, from which I conclude that there were none. Which is unconsciable, ketamine isn't "just an aspirin".

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#146

Post by bsanr2 »

dirtnugget wrote: post #71
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #62

> He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. 315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff. edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 1…

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

The uncomfortable truth is that authorities regularly misidentify black men as being bigger/taller/older/darker than they actually are. Whether that's an issue specific to police indoctrination or to American culture in general, it's clearly part of what happened here.

Apologies to the HN users who will be incensed at the notion of race playing a role in this situation.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#147

Post by chmod775 »

wonderwonder wrote: post #124
mortehu wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are resisting arrest, you may still be presumed innocent of the original crime. However you're almost certainly guilty of resisting lawful arrest, which is usually a misdemeanor. There's no exemption that allows innocent people to resist lawful arrest. This is not to say that injection sounds like a great solution for everyday arrests.

In america if the police are killing you, resisting that death is a crime. If someone had attempted to stop the police from killing George Floyd, they would have been arrested and charged. You can imagine the confusion that arises when plain clothes police seize people.

In most countries you can get off the hook for pretty much anything if you had a good reason to fear for your life.

In some countries it's even enough that a police officer is acting (obviously) unlawfully, giving you the right to resist.[1]

[1]: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__32.html

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#148

Post by dirtnugget »

hh3k0 wrote: post #80
dirtnugget wrote: post #75

What worries me most about this is that ketamine on its own is psychoactive to a degree where it can cause hallucinations. I believe it is usually given in order to minimize pain, alongside a real sedative like midazolam before narcosis. By itself, it is really more fuzzy than sedating. Ever seen someone come out of narcosis? They talk a lot of stupid things.

That makes me wonder, could they use a confession by someone they pumped full of ketamine an hour prior?

Yes. I did not want to claim this but it was my first thought.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#149

Post by dirtnugget »

chrisseaton wrote: post #87
dirtnugget wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

How do you estimate the weight of a person? I know how much I weigh, but I don't know how much anyone else weighs. I guess some other people don't even weigh themselves so don't even know how much they weigh. How do you estimate it?

One more reason to leave drugs to qualified personell.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#150

Post by JohnBooty »

axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

In an ideal world, sedation is more humane than beating or shocking a suspect into submission, when there is no other way to get them under control.

If I and other HN commenters are not mistaken, ketamine is commonly used for this purpose in hospitals around the world.

However, leaving the theoretical behind... Elijah McClain was murdered by police for the "crime" of acting oddly. There was no reason for them to use force against him whatsoever. He was unarmed and committed no crime.

His death hurts me because he was, broadly speaking, "one of us" - an eccentric and intelligent person.

Based on all I have read about his life, I think many HN readers would recognize aspects of themselves in Elijah.

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