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Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

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Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#81

Post by musha68k »

burfog wrote: post #22
axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that. Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem. Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those arme…

De-escalation skills can be learned. First class psychological training and counselling could be the norm.

One gains a lot of respect by showing wisdom and courage.

Most scenarios are essentially communication problems to be solved. Not defaulting to the most violent means of "cooperation" is and should be an option for any police force in a 21st century democracy.

Look to the best in the past and in other countries.

Successful policing actually needs skin in the game.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#82

Post by antris »

burfog wrote: post #53
profikid wrote: post #46

Alcohol and ketamine is a known bad bad combination. 500mg is a damn lot of ketamine and morally there is no difference than drugging someone against their will by non medical people for no medical purpose.

Cops also use pepper spray. It's against someone's will, by non-cooks, for no culinary purpose. Cops also use electric stun guns. It's against someone's will, by non-electricians, for no electronic purpose. Mind proposing an acceptable method of restraint? Go ahead, and see people tear it apart as a human rights violation. It's much like the hopeless situation in bad schools, where all possible methods of discipline…

Can you give us examples of cases where the police are running out of legal options in their use of force?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#83

Post by collyw »

profikid wrote: post #46

Alcohol and ketamine is a known bad bad combination. 500mg is a damn lot of ketamine and morally there is no difference than drugging someone against their will by non medical people for no medical purpose.

If someone is waving a knife or gun about and is a danger to others, I would say there is a moral difference. I am assuming that the police use it mainly for cases like that, but that is just an assumption. It still seems better than shooting at them. The linked article doesn't say anything like that though, but it is quite low on details leading to the arrest.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#84

Post by gus_massa »

hnlurker wrote: post #58

Set aside the ethics, legality, and saneness of doping an arrestee for a moment. Anyone know if this impacts the arrested person's 5th amendment rights? Once you administer a mind altering drug against that person's will, any and all statements made by that person ought to be out of bounds for using against them at trial.

I was going to ask the same question. After this injection, is there a minimal time before you can spontaneously decide to make a confession without a lawyer?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#85

Post by GordonS »

dcolkitt wrote: post #72
xkcd-sucks wrote: post #13

Setting aside the fact that this kind of thing happens at all: How is ketamine the drug of choice?! Although it has a very high active dose:fatal dose (alluded to in other comments), accepted practice for "chemical restraint" is Thorazine+Valium (or equivalent); ketamine is basically never used for behavioral "sedation" by any medical professional.

I would guess the problem is those already intoxicated on opiates, or even alcohol, as many arrestees are. Adding a bento, like valium, to that mix is extremely dangerous because of the synergistic effect on respiratory depression.

If you're intoxicated on opioids, you are not going to be violently resisting arrest in the first place.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#86

Post by scarface74 »

tomcam wrote: post #17
sneak wrote: post #2

> Paramedics were called and injected McClain with ketamine, but they incorrectly estimated his weight, giving him more than 1.5 times the dose he should have received. He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. That’s 7.9mg/kg, not nearly enough ketamine to cause cardiac arrest in someone that size. LD50 in humans is at least…

> Abolish the police. Sounds cool. I have had some bad experiences with cops. Suppose someone breaks into your house because of your skin color or political leanings and there are no police. What course of action do you recommend? Spoiler alert. You are also heavily armed.

So it’s not about abolishing the police. “Defund the police”, which I agree is a bad term, is about focusing some of those funds on social programs and only calling the police for true criminal causes.

I am definitely not a conservative on most issues, but I am a strong believer in the right to have a gun in your own home and the various “Castle” laws. If you break into my house or try to take my car while I am in it, I am going to assume you mean me harm. Shoot first then call the cops.

Yes I know the statistics about a gun in the home is more likely to be used accidentally or on purpose (suicide/homicide/accidental shooting) against someone in the home.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#87

Post by chrisseaton »

dirtnugget wrote: post #71
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #62

> He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. 315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff. edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 1…

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

How do you estimate the weight of a person?

I know how much I weigh, but I don't know how much anyone else weighs. I guess some other people don't even weigh themselves so don't even know how much they weigh.

How do you estimate it?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#88

Post by scarface74 »

tomcam wrote: post #20
axaxs wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So cops are doctors now? Or EMS even? Neither have any real medical training, at all. No offense meant, EMS grind for little money, but they're not medical doctors. Narcan I was already uneasy about, but it saved real lives in obvious situations. This is absolute lunacy.

Do you have any idea how many medical procedures cops are trained on? It’s a lot. They aren’t doctors but they are required to assist medically and stabilize until EMT arrives.

It’s not about the training of police, it’s about the track record of police misconduct and coverups. Any additional tool in the tool belt of police to commit aggression is worrisome.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#89

Post by Dumblydorr »

elevenoh wrote: post #15
ladberg wrote: post #14

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place). The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reductio…

Damn. This has me wonder: had you ever done a psychedelic prior to this? I had ketamine during wakeful surgery. Loved it. Grateful it was available. But I had prev. experience w/ psychedelics & had learned/practiced how to: let go, place attention on what's positive & cease to have expectations.

Regarding place attention on the positive: Check out Sam Harris interview with Francoise Bourzat. She goes into depth about so called negative trips and feels they are just as important and useful as positive ones. I'm not sure I can summarize why, but she suggested that even negative experiences can be mindfully approached and handled well.
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