Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#11

Post by pizza » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:19 AM UTC

sneak wrote: post #2

> Paramedics were called and injected McClain with ketamine, but they incorrectly estimated his weight, giving him more than 1.5 times the dose he should have received. He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. That’s 7.9mg/kg, not nearly enough ketamine to cause cardiac arrest in someone that size. LD50 in humans is at least…

> There is a name for this behavior: a lynching.

For those who didn't know, the police culture becomes quite a bit more sickening when you find out that one of the arresting officers, along with 2 other colleagues, posed grinning in a photo mocking their brutality against McClain just days after he died! Across the street from a memorial to him, no less.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/us/Elijah-McClain-aurora-...

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#12

Post by axaxs » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:23 AM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #9

axaxs wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a life-saving drug, it's literally never needed. Guy was 140 lbs. There's not a 140 lb man I couldn't subdue myself, probably. And I'm just an out of shape programmer. Why do six cops feel they can't do the same?

Because when the feedback loops on his 140lb musculature are blocked and he will keep going to the point of permanent damage... and when his ability to feel pain is decreased... and there's a very real concern for hyperthermia, rhabdomyolysis with an extended struggle, dysrhythmia, then maybe ketamine becomes the better option. That being said, ketamine should be an EMS decision to minimize risk to patient and others…

So cops are doctors now? Or EMS even? Neither have any real medical training, at all. No offense meant, EMS grind for little money, but they're not medical doctors.

Narcan I was already uneasy about, but it saved real lives in obvious situations. This is absolute lunacy.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#13

Post by xkcd-sucks » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:23 AM UTC

Setting aside the fact that this kind of thing happens at all: How is ketamine the drug of choice?! Although it has a very high active dose:fatal dose (alluded to in other comments), accepted practice for "chemical restraint" is Thorazine+Valium (or equivalent); ketamine is basically never used for behavioral "sedation" by any medical professional.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#14

Post by ladberg » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:27 AM UTC

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place).

The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reduction over the ketamine any day. It basically felt like I was dying and there was nothing I could do to stop it. Think of the hypnosis scene from "Get Out" where you can feel your consciousness slipping away but you're not asleep either. I could hear everything happening around me but couldn't move a muscle or feel anything. My perception of time went out the window and it felt like I was in an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes.

I thought I couldn't talk because I couldn't feel my mouth or move any other muscles, but realized I was actually speaking my thoughts after I heard a friend in the room responded to something I thought in my mind.

Overall, 0/10 would not do it again and the thought that police use it to pacify someone during an arrest is sickening.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#15

Post by elevenoh » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:34 AM UTC

ladberg wrote: post #14

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place). The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reductio…

Damn. This has me wonder: had you ever done a psychedelic prior to this?

I had ketamine during wakeful surgery.

Loved it. Grateful it was available.

But I had prev. experience w/ psychedelics & had learned/practiced how to: let go, place attention on what's positive & cease to have expectations.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#16

Post by robbiep » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:37 AM UTC

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #13

Setting aside the fact that this kind of thing happens at all: How is ketamine the drug of choice?! Although it has a very high active dose:fatal dose (alluded to in other comments), accepted practice for "chemical restraint" is Thorazine+Valium (or equivalent); ketamine is basically never used for behavioral "sedation" by any medical professional.

Our Ed takedown drug is midazolam. I can’t see benzos being safe being given by non-medics. The safety profile of ketamine is excellent (as I’m sure you know)

Having said that it blows my mind that it is considered necessary or appropriate to give someone ketamine to restrain them.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#17

Post by tomcam » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:45 AM UTC

sneak wrote: post #2

> Paramedics were called and injected McClain with ketamine, but they incorrectly estimated his weight, giving him more than 1.5 times the dose he should have received. He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. That’s 7.9mg/kg, not nearly enough ketamine to cause cardiac arrest in someone that size. LD50 in humans is at least…

> Abolish the police.

Sounds cool. I have had some bad experiences with cops.

Suppose someone breaks into your house because of your skin color or political leanings and there are no police. What course of action do you recommend? Spoiler alert. You are also heavily armed.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#18

Post by throwaway189262 » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:45 AM UTC

Drugging your suspects makes sense. It's hard to justify injuring someone before they're proven guilty. Traditional methods like tasers and pepper spray tend to leave evidence thats too obvious to the courts.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#19

Post by Trasmatta » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:48 AM UTC

ladberg wrote: post #14

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place). The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reductio…

> My perception of time went out the window and it felt like I was in an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes.

This was my exact experience with disossiatives as well. I think they can be effectively and safely used, but there's a real danger there. Disossiatives like ketamine and DXM are incredibly powerful.

After my experience in that same eternal void I struggled with a fear that what I'd experienced was the natural state of consciousness, and what would happen to me for eternity after I died. I didn't actually believe it, but the fear was still there and talk. Took a few months for it to wear off.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#20

Post by tomcam » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:48 AM UTC

axaxs wrote: post #12

FireBeyond wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because when the feedback loops on his 140lb musculature are blocked and he will keep going to the point of permanent damage... and when his ability to feel pain is decreased... and there's a very real concern for hyperthermia, rhabdomyolysis with an extended struggle, dysrhythmia, then maybe ketamine becomes the better option. That being said, ketamine should be an EMS decision to minimize risk to patient and others…

So cops are doctors now? Or EMS even? Neither have any real medical training, at all. No offense meant, EMS grind for little money, but they're not medical doctors. Narcan I was already uneasy about, but it saved real lives in obvious situations. This is absolute lunacy.

Do you have any idea how many medical procedures cops are trained on? It’s a lot. They aren’t doctors but they are required to assist medically and stabilize until EMT arrives.