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Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

abcnews.go.com

71–80 of 435 posts

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#71

> He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. 315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff. edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 1…

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight.

But yes, it’s a lot.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#72

Setting aside the fact that this kind of thing happens at all: How is ketamine the drug of choice?! Although it has a very high active dose:fatal dose (alluded to in other comments), accepted practice for "chemical restraint" is Thorazine+Valium (or equivalent); ketamine is basically never used for behavioral "sedation" by any medical professional.

I would guess the problem is those already intoxicated on opiates, or even alcohol, as many arrestees are.

Adding a bento, like valium, to that mix is extremely dangerous because of the synergistic effect on respiratory depression.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#73
post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

Police use many kinds of violence when arresting people who don't want to be arrested. That's how it has to be.

The "but they're considered innocent" argument proves too much.

EDIT: I'm surprised by the heavy downvoting. Do people really think arrests should be voluntary and consensual?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#74
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that. Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem. Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those arme…

I agree that all restraint methods are upsetting, but "inject with dissociative drugs" should really be a lot further down the list than "hit with stick". Personally, I favor hitting people with billy clubs, because it leaves evidence of what happened and it requires the police to actually take physical action against another human. Giving cops needles full of magic compliance juice seems less responsible to me. The…

If I was being restrained, I would far rather be given a hit of ketamine than a hit of a bat.

(From people that seem to know a bit about restraint techniques Joe Rogan and Jocko Willink discussed the use of choke holds on Joe's podacst. They both agreed that it was far better than a smack with a baton. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=iUhdc1GAddk&...).

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#75
What worries me most about this is that ketamine on its own is psychoactive to a degree where it can cause hallucinations. I believe it is usually given in order to minimize pain, alongside a real sedative like midazolam before narcosis. By itself, it is really more fuzzy than sedating.

Ever seen someone come out of narcosis? They talk a lot of stupid things.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#76
post #53

Alcohol and ketamine is a known bad bad combination. 500mg is a damn lot of ketamine and morally there is no difference than drugging someone against their will by non medical people for no medical purpose.

Cops also use pepper spray. It's against someone's will, by non-cooks, for no culinary purpose. Cops also use electric stun guns. It's against someone's will, by non-electricians, for no electronic purpose. Mind proposing an acceptable method of restraint? Go ahead, and see people tear it apart as a human rights violation. It's much like the hopeless situation in bad schools, where all possible methods of discipline…

And cops use bullets, too. Soldiers use even better bullets, and these are a super effective method of disciplining people with great longterm success in reducing repeat offenders.

But the cost on the detainee (who is to be presumed innocent, who may be in distress themself, who may have a psychotic episode due to some unknown cross-reaction with medication or the like, who may be deeply scared) is much, much, much higher, which is why this sort of thing almost never happens where I live (not the US, obviously).

I feel there are good reasons to assume that force-injecting someone with a megadose of Ketamine without their knowing what they're getting, understanding what they're getting into, competent assistance during what follows, in a profoundly bad state of mind, likely in deep fear, under heavy stress, while being restrained (otherwise, how would you inject?), with no knowlegde of their medical history or current condition, administered by laypeople, who would be completely useless in case of complications – I believe that isn't quite the same as tasing someone, or using pepper spray. While it's not visible in the way beating injuries are, that sort of thing has big potential to really deeply traumatize and mentally scar people for a long time.

Cops here do not have such powers and no one has tried to give them such powers, so far; I hope it stays that way. If someone has to be sedated, a doctor and an ambulance have to be summoned, and the then-patient has to be brought directly to a clinic that can take care of them; all in a medical setting from that point, not primarily an arrest (though, of course, depending on the situation, they may not be allowed to just leave once they're lucid again). This is only ever to be done in case of people in a psychotic episode that cannot be calmed otherwise or the like, it's not something to put into annoying detainees to make them shut up and be easier to handle. Any emergency doctor willing to inject such drugs without proper medical indication would take on big personal risks.

And, finally:

> Things are a mess if we deny the need to impose proper behavior by force.

Things are a mess as well if the tools to do so are passed out without checks and safety mechanisms that are appropriate to their effects. Letting cops shoot people at will while there are other, less severe options, that's awfully bad. And letting them drug people into submission while there are other, less severe options, that too is really bad.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#77
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine there's also got to be a difference between getting it for a planned surgery that you can prepare for, vs having it thrust on you suddenly during a traumatic and painful experience. Kind of hard to let go in that situation.

And several doses of morphine usually have at least some effect on the body/mind

Some people are immune, or almost immune: https://partner.sciencenorway.no/forskningno-norway-ntnu/gen...

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#78
post #5
post #4

I'm confused. The police aren't administering the drug, EMS is. Can't you just solve this by telling EMS not to administer it unless they feel it's needed?

It's not a life-saving drug, it's literally never needed. Guy was 140 lbs. There's not a 140 lb man I couldn't subdue myself, probably. And I'm just an out of shape programmer. Why do six cops feel they can't do the same?

You have no idea what you’re talking about. There are 140lb men and women that could calmly choke you to death. Somewhere in that alltercation you will progress from trying to subdue them to fighting for your life, at which point you will throw all rules out the window and willfully violate any and all lawful progression in the use of force continuum.

Hopefully your demise will be captured on video to use in training material for future generations of law-enforcement, as has been the case for many before you.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#79
post #53

Alcohol and ketamine is a known bad bad combination. 500mg is a damn lot of ketamine and morally there is no difference than drugging someone against their will by non medical people for no medical purpose.

Cops also use pepper spray. It's against someone's will, by non-cooks, for no culinary purpose. Cops also use electric stun guns. It's against someone's will, by non-electricians, for no electronic purpose. Mind proposing an acceptable method of restraint? Go ahead, and see people tear it apart as a human rights violation. It's much like the hopeless situation in bad schools, where all possible methods of discipline…

But surprisingly, even in “good schools”, when the same offense happens by minorities vs. non minorities, it is criminalized when done by minorities.

I was amazed at the stories my son told me about kids getting caught with drugs, hitting a coach, vandalizing property and all that happened was that the parents got called and a few days of suspension and the police were never involved. Because “kids will be kids”. Of course this is in a high income district.

When I was previously married living in a predominantly minority neighborhood - great neighborhood, lower income minority school district - my step daughter would tell me about the even the most minor of offenses where administrators would get the police involved.

There have been plenty of studies showing the unequal treatment of Black and White kids.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#80

What worries me most about this is that ketamine on its own is psychoactive to a degree where it can cause hallucinations. I believe it is usually given in order to minimize pain, alongside a real sedative like midazolam before narcosis. By itself, it is really more fuzzy than sedating. Ever seen someone come out of narcosis? They talk a lot of stupid things.

That makes me wonder, could they use a confession by someone they pumped full of ketamine an hour prior?
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