Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#101

Post by learc83 » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

ak39 wrote: post #64

nerdbaggy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some good uses cases . You arrive on scene and the patient is injured and agitated and lashing out. EMT is having a hard time as well. You need to give them something. Basically Benzos or Ketamine, and Ketamine is much safer and can relieve pain

Yes, but drugs should only be administered by suitably trained and educated professionals such as EMT and health care professionals. Not police!

My fiancée has to deal with kids in the ER who got injected with too much ketamine by overzealous EMTs all the time. I don’t think limiting it to EMTs will solve the problem.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#102

Post by Sir_Substance » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:24 PM UTC

burfog wrote: post #22

axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that. Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem. Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those arme…

If it's ok for us to deal with violent people by:

a) gunning them down in the streets

b) beating the shit out of them

c) injecting them with hilarious overdoses of drugs and crossing our fingers

then why would we pay for police?

If that's ok, we might as well go back to old west times and just have everyone carry revolvers, possibly calling the town apothecary with his bottle of ether if we think we need it. It'll be way cheaper than maintaining a standing police department.

The whole point is that police are supposed to be trained and equipped to handle disturbances without harming the person being detained. There are options for this, including that so rarely used tactic, defusal.

Like, we pay police overtime. Cordon the person off, give them space but don't let them leave, wait until they get hungry even if it takes 12 hours, and then bribe them with pizza to come quietly. Build rapport with them over the entire incident. How often do we see that strategy deployed before we fall back to injecting ketamine?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#103

Post by mortehu » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:25 PM UTC

axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

If you are resisting arrest, you may still be presumed innocent of the original crime. However you're almost certainly guilty of resisting lawful arrest, which is usually a misdemeanor.

There's no exemption that allows innocent people to resist lawful arrest.

This is not to say that injection sounds like a great solution for everyday arrests.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#104

Post by learc83 » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:25 PM UTC

i_am_proteus wrote: post #67

ak39 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but drugs should only be administered by suitably trained and educated professionals such as EMT and health care professionals. Not police!

Many (not all) police departments cross-train police officers as EMTs. The two are not mutually exclusive and, in many ways, complement each other.

Full time EMTs aren’t trained enough to make good decisions about when it’s appropriate to administer ketamine and how much to give. A cop who did some EMT training but doesn’t use the skills full time is going to be even worse.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#105

Post by p0llard » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:26 PM UTC

burfog wrote: post #22

axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that. Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem. Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those arme…

I live in a country where we don't inject people with ketamine on the street, nor do "criminals run amok". We also don't have armed gangs imposing "their own idea of a justice system", and we have fewer police killings in 25 years than the US has in 25 days.

I imagine your comment is probably symptomatic of the major societal issues within the US; it certainly worsens the image of the US to those fortunate enough to live in a Western nation which isn't actively regressing.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#106

Post by BagPiper5000 » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:27 PM UTC

ladberg wrote: post #14

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place). The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reductio…

Accidentally doing too much ketamine and badly k-holing (by snorting) is one of the worst experiences of my life. Maybe the worst. It was exactly as you described, it's like you're being cut off from reality and have no way back. It's like being plunged into the bottom of the ocean, darkness, everything real is distant, you try to move but you can't - it's like someone has unplugged all your sensory organs and limbs.

And it comes in waves -- just when you think you're coming out of it, it pulls you back down.

I swore off ketamine for life after that and don't plan on ever touching it again. I would take a bad comedown from stimulants over that. I would take the feeling of hopelessness, anhedonia, and thorough depression from a bad MDMA comedown any day. To be fair, both things only happen if you do too much, it's avoidable, and it was entirely my fault for not weighing the dose.

And I still think therapeutic ketamine for depression should be studied and trialled and legal. But still, K-holing was an absolutely horrifying experience and I don't recommend it to anyone for any reason.

And it probably was only not even worse because I was also on MDMA.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#107

Post by GhostVII » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:28 PM UTC

mateus1 wrote: post #69

EVdotIO wrote: post #41

Disclaimer: There is so much that can go wrong administering drugs without somebody's medical background (like just getting the weight right in this case), random variables (say ate grapefruit beforehand), or just sheer dumb misfortune. Then there is the dystopian nature of yet another layer to diffuse responsibility. This is tragic, and I hope doesn't set precedent. All that out of the way. Why is this on here? This…

Policemen without any medical training are injecting and murdering people with drugs. This is a disturbing (and new) phenomenon. At least for someone outside the US.

That is false, police are not injecting people with Ketamine. As the article says, paramedics are.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#108

Post by rdmirza » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:30 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #100

hutzlibu wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Height + bellysize + muscle size?

Right... how do I get a number from looking at those?

Compare those values to your own weight, and pay attention when you hear someone’s weight to see if it matches your heuristic.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#109

Post by kevingadd » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:32 PM UTC

mortehu wrote: post #103

axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

If you are resisting arrest, you may still be presumed innocent of the original crime. However you're almost certainly guilty of resisting lawful arrest, which is usually a misdemeanor. There's no exemption that allows innocent people to resist lawful arrest. This is not to say that injection sounds like a great solution for everyday arrests.

Of course, the definition of "lawful arrest" is pretty flexible these days and can seemingly include arrests that are blatantly unlawful, like some cops deciding to assault a random passerby on the street because they don't like the look of them or are unhappy about legal conduct like photography. Is it okay to resist under those circumstances? According to a judge or a police officer, probably not, but at the end of the day you'd probably win the case. If you survive.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#110

Post by jessaustin » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:32 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #78

axaxs wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a life-saving drug, it's literally never needed. Guy was 140 lbs. There's not a 140 lb man I couldn't subdue myself, probably. And I'm just an out of shape programmer. Why do six cops feel they can't do the same?

You have no idea what you’re talking about. There are 140lb men and women that could calmly choke you to death. Somewhere in that alltercation you will progress from trying to subdue them to fighting for your life, at which point you will throw all rules out the window and willfully violate any and all lawful progression in the use of force continuum. Hopefully your demise will be captured on video to use in training…

You're also making assumptions here. Lots of out-of-shape programmers have been in fights. Lots of out-of-shape programmers weigh more than twice what this victim weighed, and still move well. Also, get out of here with that "women" bullshit: that proves all your implied expertise comes from watching TV.

The attitude here is typical of bootlickers, however. Never mind that there were a dozen cops present. Never mind that they were not responding to an actual crime. Never mind that very few people in the general public are highly-trained choke-out ninjas. Some cops might get scared, so let's burn the world down. Pathetic.