Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

abcnews.go.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 435 posts

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#121

Post by wonderwonder »

dirtnugget wrote: post #71
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #62

> He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. 315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff. edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 1…

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

I would be really surprised if they estimated this poorly and would guess they were just irritated by him and decided to up the dose as punishment. If I am wrong then they receive zero training when estimating weight and multiple officers are terrible at it. To mistakenly confuse a 140lb for 220lb is poor judgement to the point that it strains credulity.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#122

Post by JshWright »

chrisseaton wrote: post #87
dirtnugget wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

How do you estimate the weight of a person? I know how much I weigh, but I don't know how much anyone else weighs. I guess some other people don't even weigh themselves so don't even know how much they weigh. How do you estimate it?

> How do you estimate the weight of a person?

Practice. In theory if you're doing this a lot, you should be able do a decent job of estimating +/- 10%, which is more than accurate enough.

There are certainly other complications (some medications are dosed on "ideal body weight" (ignoring subcutaneous fat), etc...)

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#123

Post by [deleted] »

chance_state wrote: post #114
mortehu wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are resisting arrest, you may still be presumed innocent of the original crime. However you're almost certainly guilty of resisting lawful arrest, which is usually a misdemeanor. There's no exemption that allows innocent people to resist lawful arrest. This is not to say that injection sounds like a great solution for everyday arrests.

Thankfully we don't use "almost certainly guilty" as the criminal standard in the US. So, you're still injecting an innocent person with drugs to detain them.

[deleted]

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#124

Post by wonderwonder »

mortehu wrote: post #103
axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

If you are resisting arrest, you may still be presumed innocent of the original crime. However you're almost certainly guilty of resisting lawful arrest, which is usually a misdemeanor. There's no exemption that allows innocent people to resist lawful arrest. This is not to say that injection sounds like a great solution for everyday arrests.

In america if the police are killing you, resisting that death is a crime. If someone had attempted to stop the police from killing George Floyd, they would have been arrested and charged.

You can imagine the confusion that arises when plain clothes police seize people.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#125

Post by caskethopper »

anon9001 wrote: post #26
burfog wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that. Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem. Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those arme…

I agree that all restraint methods are upsetting, but "inject with dissociative drugs" should really be a lot further down the list than "hit with stick". Personally, I favor hitting people with billy clubs, because it leaves evidence of what happened and it requires the police to actually take physical action against another human. Giving cops needles full of magic compliance juice seems less responsible to me. The…

From the article, it sounds like it is on a completely different list altogether.

"Most states and agencies say ketamine may be administered when someone exhibits “excited delirium” or agitation, which is typically associated with chronic drug abuse, mental illness or both."

In that scenario, the police would be beating the culprit into compliance and we would all be looking at videos on youtube shaking our heads. I'm not saying cops should be carrying hypodermics in their utility belt, but how many non-lethal options do you remove before you have to accept more lethal outcomes?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#126

Post by alchemism »

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #62

> He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. 315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff. edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 1…

I’ve seen club kids go into what I can only describe as an ‘ambulatory trance state’ at the dosage levels you speak of.

I talked down one or two people from completely destroying their environment while in such a state, by using deliberately de-escalatory calming techniques.

I’m aghast the police would use such a substance because it is indeed a recipe for disaster when mixed with their expectations of behavior.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#127

Post by sethammons »

learc83 wrote: post #101
ak39 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but drugs should only be administered by suitably trained and educated professionals such as EMT and health care professionals. Not police!

My fiancée has to deal with kids in the ER who got injected with too much ketamine by overzealous EMTs all the time. I don’t think limiting it to EMTs will solve the problem.

Someone with a minimum amount of training and who makes something close to minimum wage making these kinds of decisions is scary.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#128

Post by wonderwonder »

collyw wrote: post #74
anon9001 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that all restraint methods are upsetting, but "inject with dissociative drugs" should really be a lot further down the list than "hit with stick". Personally, I favor hitting people with billy clubs, because it leaves evidence of what happened and it requires the police to actually take physical action against another human. Giving cops needles full of magic compliance juice seems less responsible to me. The…

If I was being restrained, I would far rather be given a hit of ketamine than a hit of a bat. (From people that seem to know a bit about restraint techniques Joe Rogan and Jocko Willink discussed the use of choke holds on Joe's podacst. They both agreed that it was far better than a smack with a baton. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=iUhdc1GAddk&... ).

I guess the argument against this is how many people in the US have died from being struck by a police club vs from a police chokehold. I cant recall a single instance of death by police bat.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#129

Post by jbnorth »

mateus1 wrote: post #69
EVdotIO wrote: post #41

Disclaimer: There is so much that can go wrong administering drugs without somebody's medical background (like just getting the weight right in this case), random variables (say ate grapefruit beforehand), or just sheer dumb misfortune. Then there is the dystopian nature of yet another layer to diffuse responsibility. This is tragic, and I hope doesn't set precedent. All that out of the way. Why is this on here? This…

Policemen without any medical training are injecting and murdering people with drugs. This is a disturbing (and new) phenomenon. At least for someone outside the US.

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure where you're getting that information. Ketamine is administered in pre-hospital settings only by paramedics. Police cannot give it nor can they order medics to do so.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#130

Post by wittyreference »

rscho wrote: post #93
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #62

> He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. 315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff. edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 1…

> 315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) Iv dose for induction of general anesthesia is ~3-5 mg/kg. Or ~5 mg/kg intramuscularly. The main thing with ketamine is that it causes tachycardia/arrhythmias and increases blood pressure. While that can be desirable for people in shock, it is a big problem if the person is already under proarrhythmic drugs (e.g. cocaine). In Eur…

I’m pretty sure the lit goes up to 8 mg/kg for IM. In the case of a 100lb pt, that’s what, 50kg? So they give the pt 6 mg per kg. It’s not out of the range of sanity, all else equal.

Key point though: you wouldn’t give the pt 8 mg/kg in a fucking bolus. Time to onset for sedative effect is fast (10min or so); time to peripheral adverse effects can easily take an hour. You’d start way lower than 8, and work your way up if you needed to.

Post reply on HN