Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#581

Post by cbmuser » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:30 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #551

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

Independent contractors can’t set their own rates or decline jobs. FedEx uses independent contractors with established rates and requirements to carry. There are many independent contractors who can’t set rates or choose not to do parts of the job. Even my local barber shop co-op makes independent contractors have price ranges and doesn’t let them refuse walk ins if they are on duty. When I was an independent contrac…

> Independent contractors can’t set their own rates or decline jobs.

Yes, they can. If not, they're not independent.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#582

Post by sida » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:39 PM UTC

URSpider94 wrote: post #484

EpicEng wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform... As a contractor I can set my rate, but the company can also simply not hire me. As a contractor I can act as I wish, but the company can terminate my contract. As a contractor, I pay for my unemployment insurance if I want it. So... What's the practical difference? How is this any different than someone who decides to make a livin…

You’re making an error in your analogy. When I sell you my Smurfs collection on EBay, I set the terms of sale and you bid. You and I come to agreement on the terms of the transaction, within some limits that EBay, as the platform, sets. When I sell a ride to you on Uber, Uber sets the price, tells me where to pick you up, and even dictates the route I should take. I don’t even get to see where I’m taking you until af…

You know your statement is categorically untrue right.

"Uber sets the price"

In California, the driver sets their own price.

"tells me where to pick you up"

Given that this is a taxi service. The driver has to know where to pick up. In fact, how is this different from EBay? Does the seller become an employee because ebay tells the seller where to ship the goods?

"even dictates the route I should take"

No it doesn't. Most drivers use google maps.

"I don’t even get to see where I’m taking you until after I accept the ride"

That's also categorically untrue in California. The driver gets to see the trip before accepting.

Of course, all of these rolled out because of AB5. The question is: can you tell me why the driver is an employee?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#583

Post by Retric » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:40 PM UTC

sida wrote: post #571

Retric wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Globally they can’t, there is a tiny program in some parts of California designed presumably for local regulars, where some drivers can influence rates. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/uber-lets-some-cal... Of note the way it’s implemented is actively designed not to be used. Effectively Uber lets those drivers multiply their existing calculation by some number but not for example simply set a minimum charg…

Well they can in California and that’s what matters. Because this law is being contested in California. I get the design. And of course uber wants to encourage lowering prices. However, the point remains: driver set prices, even if the design makes it less obvious. Eventually, if a driver has a number in mind, the driver flips a button to get that number. As for negotiate individual trips, I don’t understand the poin…

Not even everyone in California, further it’s US and other countries law ride sharing companies are breaking not just California law.

Why negotiation is important is overhead. Dollars per mile / per minute doesn’t cover time to pick someone up. If someone wants to go 1 miles and it’s going to take you X minutes to pick them up that’s much worse than a trip that’s 10 miles long and takes the same X minutes to pick them up. Uber really doesn’t want drivers to be able to decide such trips or people left for hours end up going to other platforms. However, Uber is pushing these losses to their drivers.

Now, if Uber is pushing people to take such unprofitable trips that’s fine if drivers are employees. But, it clearly breaks the model of drivers as independent contractors with each trip being independent.

PS: in term of breaking the law that’s not an automatic prosecution. Enforcement tends to be extremely lax on such issues.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#584

Post by Cederfjard » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:43 PM UTC

anonunivgrad wrote: post #524

ram_rar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 for tipping culture. I just dont get it, why can employers pay their fair share, instead of expecting customers to foot the bill.

This is a myth. Tipped employees typically do way better than the minimum wage. Tipping encourages good service. Go to your average European restaurant and you can see what the alternative is: lazy and often outright rude waitstaff who resent their customers.

I’ve been to many European restaurants, being European myself, and I don’t usually find that waitstaff are rude or lazy. I actually think I would be a bit nauseated by a waiter putting on some sort of over-friendly spiel for me to encourage a higher tip.

It makes sense that receiving tips can be more lucrative than a low fixed wage. Is it the case across the board? I imagine that young and attractive people do better in that regard, irrespective of actual performance.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#585

Post by Consultant32452 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

tdeck wrote: post #413

Consultant32452 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there is a general pattern. The left tends to prioritize all the good ideas: gender equality, racial equality, income gaps, etc. The right tends to prioritize systems that actually function in the real world with real people who are sometimes jealous, stupid, unethical, liars, etc. This is just a case where the first group has run amok without talking to the second group. It's the good idea of everyone sh…

> The right tends to prioritize systems that actually function in the real world This is a lazy take - plenty of systems have been created by "the right" that don't work, even according to their stated goals. Moreover, how do you define "work", and why are things like gender and racial equality framed as extras rather than integral to evaluating whether a system works? > This is just a case where the first group has…

>This is a lazy take - plenty of systems have been created by "the right" that don't work, even according to their stated goals. Moreover, how do you define "work", and why are things like gender and racial equality framed as extras rather than integral to evaluating whether a system works?

I don't think you understand what the word "prioritize" means.

>Uber/Lyft were shut down for a day

Uber/Lyft is not the only industry impacted.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#586

Post by nogabebop23 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:51 PM UTC

kyle_martin1 wrote: post #579

swc wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems more nuanced than implied here. It sounds as though the 'main issue' wasn't that Super Shuttle couldn't work while letting their drivers be independent, but rather that they couldn't compete on price with a service that didn't. If a business was paying their workers minimum wage and couldn't compete on price with another business that came in and didn't respect minimum wage laws, you wouldn't say the main…

No. It isn’t more nuanced than that. SuperShuttle couldn’t make changes because the drivers irrationally refused to work more for the same pay, even though they knew the company was failing. It really is that simple.

>> because the drivers irrationally refused to work more for the same pay

How is this irrational? You offer me $X for Y hours of work. If X/Y gets too small I say "no" and do something with higher utility, even if that's playing flappy bird. I don't really care that my actions destroy the source of this opportunity because I've already rejected it.

You are right that this is simple, just not in the way you're interpreting it.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#587

Post by orclev » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:53 PM UTC

anonunivgrad wrote: post #460

orclev wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our economy has become so overwhelmingly top heavy that the majority of the population is losing the ability to take part in it. The middle class used to be the mean income, but these days the mean has drifted so far from the mode that the distinction between middle class and lower class has all but vanished. Just taking a brief look at the 2014 census numbers, the mode income was centered around $22,000 a year while…

Mode is a preposterous and arbitrary measurement to use. Median is what you’re looking for, but it doesn’t support your narrative as well.

Median is just the arbitrary mid point between the two extremes, that doesn't actually mean anything useful to the average person. If you picked someone at random from the subset of the US population that reports an income (presumably the working population) and asked them what their income is, the most likely answer is the mode value, or in 2014 about $22,000. That's reality. That's why that is important.

The median income ($53,000) is literally pointless except as yet another indicator of how unbalanced the economy is. If the economy was perfectly balanced the median and mean would be the same, but they're nowhere near that. The median was $53,000, while the mean was $75,000. An incredibly large chunk of the US is making significantly less than a handful of massive earners. And that's not even factoring in all the dirty tricks that the richest use to hide their wealth like offshoring bank accounts and shifting most of their assets into capital gains.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#588

Post by orclev » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:57 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #366

orclev wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our economy has become so overwhelmingly top heavy that the majority of the population is losing the ability to take part in it. The middle class used to be the mean income, but these days the mean has drifted so far from the mode that the distinction between middle class and lower class has all but vanished. Just taking a brief look at the 2014 census numbers, the mode income was centered around $22,000 a year while…

The mode is meaningless with such a huge continuous range. A huge chunk of people are right at that income level because of minimum wage. 50% of the people still make more than 50k. Look at a distribution graph to help visualize it: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/dist...

That chart is s great example of exactly what I'm talking about. Look at that 95th percentile line. It's LEFT of the center. 95% of the population is making less than HALF of the top earners.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#589

Post by Consultant32452 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:03 PM UTC

james-mcelwain wrote: post #405

Consultant32452 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great example of having the right ideas but not understanding workable systems with real people. Let's take just one industry and I can show you how it's not as simple as you make it out to be: socialized/single-payer medicine. This is a system which reduces incentives (profits) in exchange for some equity. This is a great idea because we don't like it when people suffer. But what are the costs? Basic econo…

First of all, "Basic economics/psychology informs" does not constitute empirical proof that UHC leads to decreased "innovation" (which is a weasel word in itself). Second, even if we granted the premise that UHC leads to less healthcare innovation, this doesn't mean that there's "infinite harm" in to people in the future. Unless you're claiming you have a crystal ball, there is absolute 0 epistemic basis on which to…

>First of all, "Basic economics/psychology informs" does not constitute empirical proof that UHC leads to decreased "innovation" (which is a weasel word in itself).

Either you believe humans respond to incentives or you don't. It's that simple.

> Second, even if we granted the premise that UHC leads to less healthcare innovation, this doesn't mean that there's "infinite harm" in to people in the future. Unless you're claiming you have a crystal ball, there is absolute 0 epistemic basis on which to make this claim. For all we know, not having UHC leads to nuclear war and we all die. Or, having UHC leads to the singularity. Etc.

I'm not making a "butterfly effect" argument where there's no obvious direct line between choice A and impact B. The only axiom I need is that humans respond to incentives, and then what happens when you reduce or remove incentives is obvious. You tend to get less of that thing.

>I would argue that we've picked most of the low-hanging fruit of human medicine and that the marginal utility produced by new treatments is far outweighed by the human suffering of our for-profit system.

If you believe we're basically near the end of potential for human medicine, would you support cutting subsidies and funding for research in the healthcare field?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#590

Post by Scoundreller » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:06 PM UTC

goostavos wrote: post #519

xapata wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.

Things I don't miss about cabs: 1. them complaining about short fair or straight up driving off before I could get in because I wasn't going far enough (lesson learned in Vegas: get in before answering questions) 2. The constant, relentless dance about their "credit card machine being broken" "you can pay cash!" "there's an ATM machine inside" Uber and Lyft were god sends when I was traveling a lot for work. click bu…

In theory, the idea of regulated, but high, fares for taxis came with a legal obligation to accept all rides.

But that never stopped drivers from playing that game anyway.