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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#571

Post by sida »

Retric wrote: post #477
sida wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you know uber lets drivers set prices now right?

Globally they can’t, there is a tiny program in some parts of California designed presumably for local regulars, where some drivers can influence rates. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/uber-lets-some-cal... Of note the way it’s implemented is actively designed not to be used. Effectively Uber lets those drivers multiply their existing calculation by some number but not for example simply set a minimum charg…

Well they can in California and that’s what matters. Because this law is being contested in California.

I get the design. And of course uber wants to encourage lowering prices. However, the point remains: driver set prices, even if the design makes it less obvious. Eventually, if a driver has a number in mind, the driver flips a button to get that number.

As for negotiate individual trips, I don’t understand the point here. You set the prices for dollars per mile / per minute. The trip price is reflective of what the driver set already.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#572

Post by kyle_martin1 »

chmod600 wrote: post #511
kyle_martin1 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a…

So lower the price of big trips and raise the price of small trips until thing balance out?

We tried. The drivers revolted when we changed fares because they didn’t want things to change. Remember humans are irrational beings.

Most were longtime drivers and knew historical fare. We just couldn’t get them to change their mindset.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#573

Post by sida »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #520
sida wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But while you are working at macdonalds you cannot simultaneously be working for KFC. That’s what a uber/lyft drivers do

I don’t believe a driver viewing the available riders is “working” any more than someone looking at prices in the apps to ride are “riding” until they accept a fare. People interview at many jobs simultaneously, bid on multiple contracts simultaneously, but they are not _working_ them simultaneously until an agreement is made. So unless a driver has a rider from lyft and a rider from uber in the car at the same time,…

Right so your point is that the driver is only an employee while on a trip. And while waiting for a trip, the driver is not an employee?

I am sure uber/lyft will be more than happy to pay minimum wage if the wage only counts when a trip begins. But the reason the companies are against the law is because the law requires minimum wage while the driver is not driving too. Which means that a driver could actually get 2 minimum wages at the same time while driving for both uber/lyft.

But of course that won’t happen. Uber/lyft will ban driving for competitor. Set up shifts such that every driver drives 37.5 hours a week. It is simply not worth the hassle of paying all these benefits for drivers who log in for an hour a day at random times.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#574

Post by kyle_martin1 »

mikeryan wrote: post #495
kyle_martin1 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a…

Then the “fix” would be to make the shuttle drivers employees right?

Each van is a separate business franchise. The franchise owner, owned the van and could hire drivers as employees under their franchise.

It was more profitable for everybody with this way.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#575

Post by cbmuser »

_jal wrote: post #360
brian_cloutier wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or the ridesharing businesses. The state could also pay for it, through tax revenue. Unemployment insurance seems like a great fit for a government, since any kind of massive correlated unemployment, as we're experiencing now, would absolutely wipe out any private insurer.

And that is the way it works, in functional countries. And I absolutely agree, divorcing healthcare from employment is the single best thing the US could do to help fix several different issues. But "We could massively restructure the US economy" is only an answer to "how should rideshare employees be classified" if you want to ensure nothing changes.

> And that is the way it works, in functional countries.

In Germany, neither health insurance nor unemployment insurance are paid through taxes. Both are deducted from your salary.

It is true, however, that the government subsidizes the public health insurance so that low-income households can afford an insurance.

Also, we have similar laws in Germany (and most European) countries like AB5 that prohibit misclassification of employees as independent contractors:

> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheinselbst%C3%A4ndigkeit

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#576

Post by CryptoPunk »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

How about things stay how they are, and drivers are treated as the contract they agreed to stipulates.

Mandated employment benefits are a completely unjustifiable imposition on private contracts.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#577

Post by emiliobumachar »

sudosysgen wrote: post #401
gruez wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is significant evidence that long term unemployment REALLY hurts someone's hiring chances when applying for a job (see https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/04/co... . from 2013 with linked papers). But in the study linked, they're really testing whether a resume gap hurts your chances of getting hired. I'm skeptical that it would translate the same to gig economy job, given you can't ask them…

This is a good point. Gig work is unfalsifiable and worth as much as a blank period to an employer trying to see if you are a good fit. Hell, you could lie and say that you were an Uber driver and there is literally no way for this to be verified.

People exist who are uncomfortable blatantly lying even if they can easily get away with it, and they tend to be good employees compared to the alternative, depending on the job specifics. Real gig work as a resume filling removes their disadvantage.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#578

Post by plussed_reader »

goostavos wrote: post #519
xapata wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.

Things I don't miss about cabs: 1. them complaining about short fair or straight up driving off before I could get in because I wasn't going far enough (lesson learned in Vegas: get in before answering questions) 2. The constant, relentless dance about their "credit card machine being broken" "you can pay cash!" "there's an ATM machine inside" Uber and Lyft were god sends when I was traveling a lot for work. click bu…

>Uber and Lyft were god sends when I was traveling a lot for work. click button, get in car, arrive at place. None of the adversarial nonsense

At the expense of the security of the drivers serving you. You get convenience, they get a subsistence lifestyle.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#579

Post by kyle_martin1 »

swc wrote: post #547
kyle_martin1 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a…

This seems more nuanced than implied here. It sounds as though the 'main issue' wasn't that Super Shuttle couldn't work while letting their drivers be independent, but rather that they couldn't compete on price with a service that didn't. If a business was paying their workers minimum wage and couldn't compete on price with another business that came in and didn't respect minimum wage laws, you wouldn't say the main…

No. It isn’t more nuanced than that. SuperShuttle couldn’t make changes because the drivers irrationally refused to work more for the same pay, even though they knew the company was failing. It really is that simple.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#580

Post by cbmuser »

sudosysgen wrote: post #389
brian_cloutier wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or the ridesharing businesses. The state could also pay for it, through tax revenue. Unemployment insurance seems like a great fit for a government, since any kind of massive correlated unemployment, as we're experiencing now, would absolutely wipe out any private insurer.

Sure. Once the State nationalizes unemployment insurance and healthcare insurance then we can reclassify them as contractors.

That still doesn't still solve the problem that drivers for UBER and Lyft don't get paid time off and paid sick leave.

Also, neither unemployment insurance nor healthcare are paid through taxes here in Germany, for example, yet the system works very well.

If the business models of Uber and Lyft cannot be profitable without misclassifying workers as independent contractors, then the business model is broken.

I don't understand why so many people, in particular from the US, have such problems understanding the reasoning behind laws to prevent the misclassification of employees as independent contractors.

It's actually very simple:

- If you're employed, you don't get to choose how you do your job and when, that's done by management. In return, the company pays your healthcare, pays unemployment and various other benefits. You are also protected through your company's liability insurance in case of an accident.

Your company basically pays you compensation for stealing your time but they are responsible for your well-being and safety during that time.

- If you're contractor, on the other hand, you get to decide how you do your job and when. You are free to decline offers, set your own prices and work with multiple partners at once. You get the maximum business freedom and are your own boss. In return, that also means you are responsible for your health insurance, your unemployment insurance and the liability insurance. You usually also can make more money as compared to being employed for the same job.

Being an employer and a self-employed contractor are fundamentally different work models with both advantages and disadvantages on their own. What Uber, Lyft and similar companies do is that they want both the benefits of an employee (being able to tell workers what to work and when) without the associated disadvantages and costs for them, shifting the risks and costs towards the workers as if they were independent contractors without the workers having the usual benefits of being an independent contractor.

And that's simply neither fair nor ethical. It's just exploitation. And that's why German (and most European law) protects workers against this misclassification.

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