Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#361

Post by username90 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 11:33 PM UTC

matmann2001 wrote: post #171

macinjosh wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but rather they have limited choices available to them given their resources and background. So let's take one more choice away!? Not every person looking to make some money is looking for something with as much commitment as employment. Not every business needs people to work according to their schedule at a specific place. While you think you're giving full-time employment and benefits to all of these people what…

Yes! If the free market results in employers offering shitty choices that take advantage of workers with limited options, the government should step in and attempt to correct the power-imbalance that puts the workers at life- and liberty-threatening disadvantages. Extrapolating from your logic, indentured servitude would still be allowed to exist.

Banning a form of work where workers owns the means of production doesn't seem to be in the workers interest. I'd rather they regulate it in a better way, for example rewrite union laws to make it possible for gig workers to unionize.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#362

Post by saalweachter » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #323

ng12 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform The independent contractor model works both ways. Uber has the right to avoid working with contractors who continually refuse work. You can't be picky about your work but also demand the company keep contracting you like you weren't. The independent contractor model doesn't map perfectly to gig work but it's much closer than traditional employees.

The point of Uber's alleged model is that Uber is not employing the driver, but rather that it is simply matching up drivers to passengers as a marketplace. If that's the case, then Uber has no right to avoid working with contractors simply because they continually refuse work. That indicates a non-independent agency arrangement between Uber and the driver (aka "employee") and that's what they're claiming they don't…

I think the one exception there is that you need to distinguish between people who don't take contracts and people who break contracts -- refusing to take a job is one thing, but if a driver frequently accepts a job then cancels it halfway through (eg, they are driving to the pickup and suddenly get offered a better job, on the competing platform), that is a horse of a different color.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#363

Post by bsder » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #342

bsder wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. However, I overwhelmingly don't want to pay for their healthcare or food stamps because they aren't earning enough money. I personally think that AB5 doesn't go far enough. If you employ people for more than 40 hours, you should owe healthcare and benefits, period . It doesn't matter whether those 40 hours are one person or 10 people or whether the p…

> However, I overwhelmingly don't want to pay for their healthcare or food stamps because they aren't earning enough money. So you response is to support a solution where they can't earn any money because it's not enough money? Congratulations, now these people are idle and you're now paying even more to cover their needs whereas previously your taxes only had to cover some of their needs and they could participate a…

> whereas previously your taxes only had to cover some of their needs

I don't believe this. I also pay for the negative externalities due to them driving: increased traffic, increased pollution, increased accident rates, hospitalization (driving is one of the most dangerous acts for people under 30), etc. I don't believe that the tiny amount they get driving for Uber/Lyft even slightly offsets this.

> working their way up to better opportunities.

Unfortunately, Uber/Lyft are a trap because they sink time in return for not very much money and give you nothing in return. I would rather support those people idle--so they can go to school, learn English better, learn a trade, work a job that has a promotion path, etc.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#364

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 11:35 PM UTC

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

[deleted]

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#365

Post by paxys » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 11:48 PM UTC

bgorman wrote: post #270

Retric wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quality is debatable but none of eBay, Amazon, or Etsy enforce prices. Fundamentally choosing prices is what defines markets, trying to set them is the actions of an employer.

This is just fundamentally wrong. As a kid I refereed soccer games. There was a set cost structure for each game depending on age group and whether I was assistant referee or center referee. There was a system where I could sign up in advance if I wanted the work or not. Uber drivers know exactly what they are getting into and they are free to quit at any time. I was not an employee of the soccer leagues, I was an in…

> I was not an employee of the soccer leagues, I was an independent contractor

Actually you were an employee, just misclassified. If you took them to court you would likely win.

Being able to set your own hours, working part time, working for other employers, quitting at any time - these are all possible in an employee relationship.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#366

Post by kortilla » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

orclev wrote: post #62

Skunkleton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...Uber drivers reported earning $13.47 per hour, which means that on average, drivers report that their car is costing them over $6 per hour to operate. If you were to drive full time, that would get you about 27k/year, which is about the average income that a taxi driver makes. Rideshare companies are asking you to take more personal financial risk than you might as a taxi driver, but giving you more flexibility.…

Our economy has become so overwhelmingly top heavy that the majority of the population is losing the ability to take part in it. The middle class used to be the mean income, but these days the mean has drifted so far from the mode that the distinction between middle class and lower class has all but vanished. Just taking a brief look at the 2014 census numbers, the mode income was centered around $22,000 a year while…

The mode is meaningless with such a huge continuous range. A huge chunk of people are right at that income level because of minimum wage. 50% of the people still make more than 50k.

Look at a distribution graph to help visualize it: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/dist...

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#367

Post by asdasfasdfasdf » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 12:00 AM UTC

username90 wrote: post #321

asdasfasdfasdf wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While you think you're giving full-time employment and benefits to all of these people what you're really doing is taking certain kinds of opportunities away. This is some of the most phenomenal bullshit I've ever read. There's nothing stopping Uber and Lyft from allowing people to work their own hours and also giving them benefits if they meet hourly qualifications. You're talking about people making <$30k a year w…

> There's nothing stopping Uber and Lyft from allowing people to work their own hours and also giving them benefits if they meet hourly qualifications. There is, if the driver drives in bad hours making their income not come up to minimum wage uber would be forced to pay the driver anyway. In order to avoid this uber would be forced to limit when and where people can drive. Being an employee means that the company ha…

>if the driver drives in bad hours making their income not come up to minimum wage uber would be forced to pay the driver anyway

is this a California specific law? There are lots of variable hour workers out there that may skirt by below the hour threshold for a short amount of time, but generally the employer can set reasonable adjustment periods where they'd lose their benefits for continuing to do so.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#368

Post by google234123 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 12:08 AM UTC

all_blue_chucks wrote: post #204

usaar333 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making them employees doesn't give them health insurance. Only if they work over 30 hours a week, which Uber is highly incentived to cap. Besides, what you are actually stating is that Uber riders should pay for Uber driver's health insurance, rather than the general population.

Correct. Uber drivers should play by the same health insurance rules as other workers. And under today's laws that requires they become employees. Ideally health insurance should be decoupled from employment status, but until then, we should all play by the same rules.

So now uber drivers can only work 28 hours a week and now can't afford health care....

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#369

Post by Consultant32452 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 12:09 AM UTC

senderista wrote: post #328

Consultant32452 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there is a general pattern. The left tends to prioritize all the good ideas: gender equality, racial equality, income gaps, etc. The right tends to prioritize systems that actually function in the real world with real people who are sometimes jealous, stupid, unethical, liars, etc. This is just a case where the first group has run amok without talking to the second group. It's the good idea of everyone sh…

There's a difference between being skeptical of idealistic schemes and fetishizing the status quo, which is what I think the right predominantly does.

Don't knock the status quo too much. The status quo is a system that brought billions of people out of abject poverty, gave us human rights, democracy, etc. We take these things for granted, but we're in an incredibly unique and very new situation where you even have the privilege to sit around and pontificate about ideas like global poverty, gender issues, gay rights, etc. Civilizations have crumbled before, and ours WILL crumble at some point in the future. One quote I like about the US is that conservatives are progressives going the speed limit. And your comment about the right fetishizing the status quo is in line with that. A progressive wants to go a mile, conservatives are like, "Ehh... let's walk a few steps in that direction and see how it goes"

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#370

Post by pixelatedindex » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 12:10 AM UTC

iaabtpbtpnn wrote: post #244

ojagodzinski wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who wants to sit in an Uber with a stranger, breathing each other's air? XD There are countries (like any other country then US) that have something called PUBLIC TRANSPORT. And people use is every day regardless of pandemic. > The ride-sharing economy has just evaporated Uber is still much more "healthier" than public transport.

I am posting from the Bay Area, we have public transit here too. Not as good as other countries, but it's normally quite popular. My girlfriend actually works for the transit agency. And right now, let me tell you, they are completely fucked. Ticket revenue is down something like 95%. Nobody wants to be on BART or Caltrain right now. (Although it's worth noting, here specifically the trains are typically used by peop…

I'm from the Bay Area and public transit here is laughable at best. To go some place would be 15 minutes by car and 45 minutes by bus - if the bus comes on time at all. The light rail in South Bay moves slower than traffic sometimes. Caltrain runs once an hour (apart from 4 hours every weekday when it's once every 20 minutes). BART extension took over 15 years!

How is this remotely a good solution? DC Metro's transit and NY transit runs circles around the one here, not to mention ones from Korea/Japan/Poland runs circles. I've been forced to take public transit for over 5 years and boy do I hate it if I've to actually get somewhere on time.

Sorry, I'm triggered :)