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I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

judiciary.house.gov

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Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#191

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

zepto wrote: post #175
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mechanisms used by Hey and xCloud would clearly be used by less trustworthy companies for nefarious purposes. Sorry but no. What mechanism was “Hey” using that could possibly be abused by a malicious app or malicious app author? If “Hey” advertised themselves as B2B without any self-service option then Apple, by their own words, would have let the app on the store. Being B2C or having self-service (even if the…

They aren’t undocumented carve outs. Anyone can produce a reader app.

Anyone can make a B2C reader app, but those reader-apps must have built-in self-service sign-up, including accepting payment through Apple. There is no way around that unless you offer a free tier and never prompt your users to upgrade or tell them that they can upgrade through their web-browser. Logically this extends to free-trials-without-payment-details because when the free trial ends what are you supposed to display in the app?

Netflix, Kindle and others are exempted from the self-service sign-up requirement because Apple knows they can’t win a PR fight against them. Spotify has self-service sign-up in the app, but that’s because they’ve always had a free tier, where’s there’s no free/gratis membership tier for Netflix or Kindle.

If you try it yourself right now Apple will require you to have a self-service signup flow in your app, which is only viable if you have a free tier - otherwise you’ll have to pay the 30% rent or let your iOS users use your service for free indefinitely because you can’t put up a “your free trial has ended” message.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#192

Post by headmelted »

mhafez17 wrote: post #142
jrochkind1 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to the company and the 20+ people? Did it indeed just wind down, everyone lost their job?

Pretty much. Site still up, but only one part time publisher making very little to keep it afloat. Site is now loaded with Google ads (we used to have no ads on the site). I'm kind of embarrassed to show the site in its current form. It's 99% old content, and no maintenance is several years. It was the best time of my life in its heyday. The founders and dev team started a new company unrelated to apps. I tried my be…

GP.

Seeing your response here has me appreciating your position in a way I didn’t above - given the circumstances and that you ultimately had to lay off your people I’m sorry for any offence caused. This must have been a rough time to work through.

The point I was making, and which I think is valid in any case, is that it’s simply not safe to build a business that’s reliant upon the whims of another company that has shown time and again that it’s policies will change with the wind.

Also, the web is still a wonderful platform with a bright future. Not least as PWAs aren’t subject to 30% taxes and subjective reviews!

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#193

Post by scarface74 »

egocentric wrote: post #152

I fully agree with the author, and "App Review is getting too powerful" was an extremely prescient thing to say back then - let alone today. I've had my own share of similar experiences with Apple in the past, one of which was here on HN recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23585682 Apple currently has an unreasonable amount of control not only on what apps can be available on their devices, but also on how…

I’ll just repost what the top comment said. But I see it as really disingenuous to try to put what you are trying to do, in the same category as Basecamp/Hey, whose side I completely support.

Here's the thing: why should anyone trust that you will actually honor this 3-day money back guarantee, or that even if you honor it now that you will continue to honor it in the future? Part of the benefit of the App Store payment system is that it puts the user in control of their trials and subscriptions and lets them easily manage, cancel, and request refunds in a way that is guaranteed. But if your refund form magically disappeared one day, no one would have any recourse against that.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#194

Post by ransom1538 »

mhafez17 wrote: post #29

Wow. I am the author of this email. I have no idea how it resurfaced after 5 years, I was only made aware of this when a friend emailed me the HN link. The sad thing is it was not just my company which was targeted, but Apple removed this entire product category. We never knew the real reason why, or if it was bigger than just a random app reviewer trying to apply Apple policy, until May 2019. That's when Bloomberg i…

1) I worked at a game company 2011: kicked out of facebook (quizzes restrictions were added to the toss)

2) I worked at a mobile ads company 2013: kicked out of apple store

3) I worked at a mobile hosting company for small shops 2015: salons, restaurants, etc: kicked out of apple store

4) I worked at a mobile social network company (2017): kicked out of apple store.

5) I built an app where people can promote their github projects (2017): account suspended by github

6) Built another app to help locate doctors: blacklisted by google

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#195

Post by scarface74 »

vmception wrote: post #45

> I fear App Review is getting too powerful. It's no longer about keeping iDevices safe or protecting the user's best Its amazing that people right here on hackernews, 5 years later, actually think it is about keeping iDevices safe when they see these legislature and regulatory movements against Apple I’m glad to see your email now

We also see government “movements” against them Post Office, voting, the right to have encrypted messages, net neutrality, citizens being able to film police misconduct, etc.

So am I suppose to trust the government?

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#196

Post by headmelted »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #35
headmelted wrote: post #19

I mean, there’s a point to be made about how much monopoly power Apple holds, and it’s now clear these questions weren’t asked until now because lawmakers were really sweet on the maker of their shiny iPhone - but this letter ain’t it. The author is grovelling to the point of it being honestly pitiful. The amount of derogatory references to the web and Android also make it really hard for me not to question the motiv…

Your point, that nobody should make iOS apps as a business because that puts them in a lousy situation, is fair but not actionable. Sure, it's a risky proposition, but there are something like 20 million registered iOS app developers out there, and so we've moved well beyond whether this was a good decision on their part. Now we have to figure out how to make society work well for these 20 million people.

To clarify what I meant, I think devs should absolutely build for iOS. I just think they should consider the future very carefully before building exclusively for iOS.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#197

Post by fsckboy »

tomc1985 wrote: post #116
overeater wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sympathies. That's a really sad story. I don't know if it's any consolation that it was at least discussed among the executives. I don't know why you originally eschewed the web. I've developed on closed platforms in the past: Facebook (when Facebook games like Farmville and Mafia Wars were crazy hot), Silverlight, OpenSocial, Twitter, and now Google Apps Script. My work is always worthless in 2-3 years, and what…

Honestly, making fun of old platforms like the web (which isn't even that old) suggests that the writer is the kind of wide-eyed business huckster playing into Americans' cultural affinity for new tech, and folks like that are a huge chunk of the reason why we have so much technology churn today Old, mature technology is a treasure. Not something to make fun of

I don't know if you meant to, but you just described Steve Jobs.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#198

Post by detaro »

scarface74 wrote: post #193
egocentric wrote: post #152

I fully agree with the author, and "App Review is getting too powerful" was an extremely prescient thing to say back then - let alone today. I've had my own share of similar experiences with Apple in the past, one of which was here on HN recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23585682 Apple currently has an unreasonable amount of control not only on what apps can be available on their devices, but also on how…

I’ll just repost what the top comment said. But I see it as really disingenuous to try to put what you are trying to do, in the same category as Basecamp/Hey, whose side I completely support. Here's the thing: why should anyone trust that you will actually honor this 3-day money back guarantee, or that even if you honor it now that you will continue to honor it in the future? Part of the benefit of the App Store paym…

What does the parent comment have to do with payments? What are they "trying to do" that's relevant to that quote?

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#199

Post by tr33house »

ransom1538 wrote: post #194
mhafez17 wrote: post #29

Wow. I am the author of this email. I have no idea how it resurfaced after 5 years, I was only made aware of this when a friend emailed me the HN link. The sad thing is it was not just my company which was targeted, but Apple removed this entire product category. We never knew the real reason why, or if it was bigger than just a random app reviewer trying to apply Apple policy, until May 2019. That's when Bloomberg i…

1) I worked at a game company 2011: kicked out of facebook (quizzes restrictions were added to the toss) 2) I worked at a mobile ads company 2013: kicked out of apple store 3) I worked at a mobile hosting company for small shops 2015: salons, restaurants, etc: kicked out of apple store 4) I worked at a mobile social network company (2017): kicked out of apple store. 5) I built an app where people can promote their gi…

you've really had it rough. I guess the lesson to all of us is to never rely on third-party platforms as much as possible

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#200

Post by headmelted »

ardy42 wrote: post #151
headmelted wrote: post #19

I mean, there’s a point to be made about how much monopoly power Apple holds, and it’s now clear these questions weren’t asked until now because lawmakers were really sweet on the maker of their shiny iPhone - but this letter ain’t it. The author is grovelling to the point of it being honestly pitiful. The amount of derogatory references to the web and Android also make it really hard for me not to question the motiv…

> If anything, the lesson to be learned here is that if your business depends exclusively on another company for its survival then it’s not your business. > To the authors point - yes, Apple can change it’s policies whenever it likes, and can use those policies to kill other companies it views as competing with it’s own interests. And in a world without antitrust regulation, a monopoly or cartel can use its market po…

Agreed insofar as legislating against this.

I’m wondering if the solution is forcing the platform vendors to allow the device owners to “bless” an App Store in the way that they can permit individual sideloaded apps.

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