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Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

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Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#301

Post by sascha_sl »

fxtentacle wrote: post #268
sascha_sl wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see arguments like this a lot, and they usually miss the importance and impact of hormonal transition. I'm trans, and thus in trans circles a lot, and almost everyone I know had some high impact mental health issue resolve upon starting hormonal transition, even if those were present before they realized they were trans. These range from generic depression over behavior that gets people autism diagnoses that sudden…

I would consider neither [1] nor [2] to be of any scientific merit. === [1] === I find your reference [1] to be incredibly intellectually dishonest: I agree with the initial paragraph that "gender dysphoria" as well as "dysphoria" in general are not well defined terms. Obviously, I was then expecting a definition by the author, but none was given. Instead, the author moves on to use the term as if it was a well-defin…

I think it is disingenuous to expect me to post rigorously cited studies and contrasting my response to the original article, when I was instead responding to some conjecture made in this thread. Mostly with a personal anecdote, with some sources mirroring and expanding on such.

I also think a lot of your points are made in bad faith:

* Taking a joke way too serious, in order to discredit the author. Based on what exactly?

* Implying transition health care is sold for large profit margins when estradiol is one of the cheapest medications around (and blockers don't exactly have high margins either). Zinnia is also not a health care provider. All these drugs are Rx.

* Doing the exact bad faith "as gospel" misreading of the symptom list zinnia warned against. This is not a diagnostic check list, these are just the things that trans people report.

* You also miss the entire point, that these symptoms resolve or get substantially better, and do not recur.

* You are seemingly content with "generic depression" as a diagnosis when depression is a symptomatic diagnosis, usually with different underlying problems. Especially at the severity we're talking about.

* You misread depersonalization as borderline. This is funny because a different diagnosis that is corelated to trans status, CPTSD, is often misdiagnosed as BPD!

Of course you can say she has a heavy bias, but neither I nor she implied otherwise. It is simply documentation of our experiences.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#302

Post by sascha_sl »

fxtentacle wrote: post #276
apsec112 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"After reading the article, I had a strong feeling that the author is probably selling related drugs and has a financial incentive to classify everything as trans symptoms." For the record, this is just totally false, Zinnia does not sell drugs (do you mean HRT? That would be illegal in the US without a medical or pharmacy license). "she's calling herself "adult demon anti-cis pro-trans activist" elsewhere" Pretty su…

I also did not find any evidence of Zinnia benefiting financially from drug sales. But just reading her writing, I couldn't shake the feeling that Zinnia has a very strong interest in increasing the rate of "gender dysphoria" diagnosis. Plus it is very obvious that Zinnia is not a neutral researcher on this topic. As for the journal, EJN has an impact factor of 2.9. As a student, I used to publish stuff for fun in an…

Zinnia is in fact not a researcher. She just writes on her and other trans people's experience.

It is an incredible show of bias on your side that you expect my response to an uncited comment to hold up to the standards of the original article, while you don't for the comment I initially responded to.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#303

Post by sascha_sl »

chordalkeyboard wrote: post #288
sascha_sl wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've watched the stream, and it painful. Not only is the book built on very little evidence, but Shrier just gets so many things wrong on stream, I have to wonder if she actually did her homework. Things that aren't even up for debate like effects of HRT, even in instances where it'd strengthen the optics of her argument. It doesn't help that Rogan only seems to have one hard opinion (legalize drugs) and seems to dis…

> I'm still hoping he'll eventually have a trans person on (that's not Debbie Hayton, Blair White or Buck Angel). why not one of them?

I'm going to assume this is not a gotcha question.

Debbie Hayton is trans exclusionary feminist, while being trans. She also writes on transgender topics for RT. I have no idea what her motivations are, she doesn't usually talk about them and in fact blocks people on twitter when they ask.

Blair White is a transmedicalist, who is so concerned about her own validity as a trans person that she insists on narrow diagnostic critera that just about include her. This makes her popular with a certain crowd. Her take on trans people that aren't exactly like her has been inconsistent. For a critical discussion with her and someone confronting her with said inconsistencies, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o_yuAuzl6Q

Buck Angel is similarly a transmedicalist, but more by virtue of transitioning at a time where only extremely few trans people were allowed to transition. Buck is a bit of a special case as one of the first trans men to transition, but he heavily relates to the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, about which you can read some fun things here: https://twitter.com/orclesbian/status/1190481639501160449

I'm not really opposed to either of these people being on JRE, but their views on trans people have already been represented on the show a few times, whereas I haven't really seen any more inclusive advocates discuss this issue with Rogan.

This is part of a wider issue with the JRE guest selection, but that'd go too far for a HN comment already way too long.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#304

Post by wozzeck »

jauer wrote: post #164
ladberg wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bet that jauer meant to say trans men (the terminology can be confusing at first) because autism is typically diagnosed earlier in life than a gender transition, so if it's under-diagnosed in women then it would also be under-diagnosed in trans men.

Transitioned a while back, didn't get it backwards :) To elaborate: I was wondering if trans men (AFAB) acquire the male-gendered autistic traits and trans women (AMAB) acquire the female-gendered traits (and underdiagnoses from diagnostic criteria being focused on male norms). Why I'm curious: I was diagnosed with Asperger's as an adult (no access to MH care as a child because raised in a cult), transitioned, and af…

Oh, thanks for the clarification! I'm also wondering if I've become "more autistic" since transitioning (to male), but it's not clear to me how much of it would be due to hormonal changes and how much would be due to no longer needing to perform certain kinds of social/emotional upkeep.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#305

Post by implements »

DavinMiler wrote: post #297
37r7rudjduj wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize this might be rude but I'm not sure what the polite way to ask is, isn't your sex always your birth sex for the most part? Outside the effects of the medications and the cosmetic effects of the surgery isn't your body still mostly the same as far as the nuts, bolts, and genetic disorders, are concerned?

The terms "gender" and "sex" are defined differently by different people, but in general the definition is something like this: Sex is usually defined in terms of genitalia, genotype (chromosomes) or similar biological properties. However, this is still not a binary male/female property, see for example intersex people. Depending on your definition, undergoing surgery may change your sex, gender, or both.

Should intersex conditions be considered normal human genetic variances (like eye colour), or genetic disorders (like Down Syndrome)?

It’s humane and polite not to describe people as abnormal, but being medically accurate I’d argue that humans are indeed binary sexed, and immutably so.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#306

Post by sascha_sl »

bsanr2 wrote: post #267
sascha_sl wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see arguments like this a lot, and they usually miss the importance and impact of hormonal transition. I'm trans, and thus in trans circles a lot, and almost everyone I know had some high impact mental health issue resolve upon starting hormonal transition, even if those were present before they realized they were trans. These range from generic depression over behavior that gets people autism diagnoses that sudden…

I wonder if studying gender affirmation among cis people wouldn't help to solidify the science behind transitioning and well-being. With presentation of gender being as much of a spectrum as gender itself, it would stand to reason that there are cis individuals who experience dysphoria by way of not physically presenting as as masculine or feminine as they feel themselves to be ( waves ). Non-clinical avenues are som…

While a lot of trans people would like it to be the case, quantity doesn't really matter past receptor saturation. Most badly adjusted doses are badly adjusted because they're not consistent instead (estradiol has a very short half life). If you have gonads producing your hormones you don't usually have this issue.

We do however have cases of gender dysphoria when treating cis people with antiandrogens for prostate cancer, so it seems to be a phenomenon not limited to trans people.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#308

Post by sascha_sl »

implements wrote: post #305
DavinMiler wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The terms "gender" and "sex" are defined differently by different people, but in general the definition is something like this: Sex is usually defined in terms of genitalia, genotype (chromosomes) or similar biological properties. However, this is still not a binary male/female property, see for example intersex people. Depending on your definition, undergoing surgery may change your sex, gender, or both.

Should intersex conditions be considered normal human genetic variances (like eye colour), or genetic disorders (like Down Syndrome)? It’s humane and polite not to describe people as abnormal, but being medically accurate I’d argue that humans are indeed binary sexed, and immutably so.

It really depends where you draw the line of "intersex condition", it's not really a term physicians specialized in the field use anymore, because variance in sexual development is ubiquitous if you look hard enough. "DSD" is typically used when there's a pronounced effect that is physically diagnosable, but it often misses other neurological factors that, for instance, corelate in transgender people.

Then again, a lot of severe conditions that would often fall under the DSD umbrella are often overlooked until they become somehow important. For instance, complete androgen insensitivity, so zero functional testosterone in an XY individual, is often not diagnosed until you notice the lack of periods / cervix.

Calling it bimodal is a much more precise way to go about it that acknowledges we have two broad categories, with lots of exceptions and caveats.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#309

Post by dragonwriter »

implements wrote: post #305
DavinMiler wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The terms "gender" and "sex" are defined differently by different people, but in general the definition is something like this: Sex is usually defined in terms of genitalia, genotype (chromosomes) or similar biological properties. However, this is still not a binary male/female property, see for example intersex people. Depending on your definition, undergoing surgery may change your sex, gender, or both.

Should intersex conditions be considered normal human genetic variances (like eye colour), or genetic disorders (like Down Syndrome)? It’s humane and polite not to describe people as abnormal, but being medically accurate I’d argue that humans are indeed binary sexed, and immutably so.

> Should intersex conditions be considered normal human genetic variances (like eye colour), or genetic disorders (like Down Syndrome)?

Doesn't really matter, for this purpose.

> I’d argue that humans are indeed binary sexed, and immutably so.

Unless you defining terms such that the variations are not merely disorders but actually nonhuman, you are clearly wrong; human alignments of sex characteristics are non-binary though bimodal.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#310

Post by bsanr2 »

fxtentacle wrote: post #292
bsanr2 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphori...

"Gender dysphoria - as a general descriptive term refers to an individual’s discontent with the assigned gender." That is a very weak definition, if you ask me.

You'll have to take it up with the APA, the authority on psychiatric disorders in the US and the author of that page.

As a dead comment stated, nobody asked you.

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