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Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

nature.com

201–210 of 358 posts

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#201
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to hear your theories if you'd be willing to share them.

Trans people in general were largely ignored by research until the 2010s, so there's very little we do know at this point. But as for unresearched hunches... There's lots of jokes in the trans community about how your stereotypical trans girl is on the autism spectrum, with rainbow-colored hair, and into kink, anime, and programming. I think there's more of a willingness to challenge societal expectations of us in th…

>I just don't identify with the male experience at all

this is a big part of it imo, your stereotypical effeminate depressed autist has virtually no connection to traditional cultural overtures of masculinity except in the body they inhabit and it's very easy to reach a point where it feels like that body is working against you.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And eastern gender roles aren't? Is there something I don't know?

'Western' in this context presumably means the binary model of man/woman dominant in the West (e.g., Europe, North America) and gradually exported to be the default worldwide (via colonisation and later cultural exports). There have been, and are, exceptions to this model in what might broadly be called 'the East'. Think of the Hijra on the Indian subcontinent, or the Kathoey (Ladyboys) in Thailand.

Thanks. Still I think to call binary genders western is a bit revisionist at best. It has been the most dominant model worldwide for a really long time.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#203
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a mass phenomenon. Neither is Autism. Fewer people are trans than are gay, but nobody really knows. At the bottom end it’s 0.3%-0.6% of the population, but that’s only people who are out. If you survey people in their low 20s, it’s higher. We’re a little less common than redheads in all likelihood. Gay people in the early 80s knew there were a lot more gay people than straight people saw, but they had no ide…

how are people who still live their cis-lives, happy and don't really plan anything medical trans? Or is trans today just a catch-all phrase for everything a little androgynous? > but many trans people use language to describe themselves that other trans people would be offended by. this seems very much like some orthodoxy trying to prescribe their opinion. What's the problem with that language as long as (I assume)…

First off: yes, trans tends to be an umbrella term these days.

>how are people who still live their cis-lives, happy and don't really plan anything medical trans? Or is trans today just a catch-all phrase for everything a little androgynous?

If I understand correctly, you're misinterpreting this graf:

>When I go to (back when travel was a thing) places that are less friendly than the coasts and people see the trans flag pin on my bag, I frequently have people come out to me and talk about how they can never transition.

The trans people GP is talking about here are absolutely trans, but they don't feel safe transitioning because their local environment is more hostile to trans people overall than the west coast or northeast of the US. I know a lot of trans people like that and "living their cis-lives," "happy," and "don't plan on anything medical" don't even begin to describe their existence. I worry a lot about most of them. Being in the closet as a trans person is not inherently safer and in particular rates of suicide are much higher.

>this seems very much like some orthodoxy trying to prescribe their opinion. What's the problem with that language as long as (I assume) people are happy with it?

It's a question of respectability and what it means to reclaim something. Some trans people like to use traditionally offensive words to describe themselves, others don't. In general I think it's best that we don't describe others with offensive terms unless they ask for it, even as they become more frequently reclaimed, but I have no problem with whatever labels someone chooses for themselves, and different communities have different norms around these things.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#204
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. So, you're asking an honest question, but it's pretty insensitive and I hope you're curious because this is the truth. Framing that as a curious questio…

It never says that the crazy describes all trans people. It doesn't call all trans fakes. You seem to even admit you didn't make it past the title with your uncharitable read, so how do you expect to respond to something it actually claims? It points out that there are some social contagion factors to some expressions in our youth. Which is completely reasonable given how much clout gives you in modern social media,…

> That you give yourself so much authority on trans matters, especially in response to such a reasonable point, is kind of an example of what I see as modern trans clout these days.

Your insistence that you have more authority than an actual transperson to explain the emotions driving trans identity because you've read a book about the 'transgender craze' is probably a more realistic reflection of 'modern trans clout'...

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#205

It's well documented that autistic individuals are having difficulties resolving or tolerating emotionally conflicting situations. If a male non-autist has girlish interests, he might be proud of his uniqueness and thereby accept it as part of himself. For a male autist, the socially conflicting girlish interests will be much more painful, thereby driving a higher percentage of autists to resolve the conflict by adju…

I see arguments like this a lot, and they usually miss the importance and impact of hormonal transition.

I'm trans, and thus in trans circles a lot, and almost everyone I know had some high impact mental health issue resolve upon starting hormonal transition, even if those were present before they realized they were trans. These range from generic depression over behavior that gets people autism diagnoses that suddenly resolve to a depersonalization. [1] Even if you want to attribute those to placebo, the effect is so pronounced and long-lastingly positive, it wouldn't really matter if it was.

Gender dysphoria is measurable[2], and gender dysphoria severe enough to lead someone to transition seems to be rooted more deeply than just the socially constructed assignments of what constitutes male and female behavior. Of course gender-non-conformance would still be expressed more strongly in such people.

What is also positively correlated to transness are conditions that could be classified as intersex, even if we don't generally diagnose them as such because they have no easy to recognize physical impact. We know about some of those, pre-natal exposure to estrogens for instance. And I'm sure there's a lot of factors we're entirely missing. There are a few neurology studies that show deviations that are are usually associated with the other sex in transgender people, even before they can hormonally transition.

[1]: https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/09/that-was-dysphoria...

[2]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30991464/

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And eastern gender roles aren't? Is there something I don't know?

Making a claim about the culture one is familiar with does not exclude that the same might be true in other cultures.

Try and say something unflattering about a culture you're familiar with "that also applies to other cultures", you'll be burned at the stake as racist / xenophobic / insensitive / etc.

Except when that culture is "the west" aka white people, then that's ok I guess.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#207
post #18

Some detractors often say transgender people have mental health issues. But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. A reality is that: A) Gender dysphoria is an imbalance of neural state. Therefore that would by definition be a mental health issue but not like the detractors say. B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothi…

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". A fellow student once told me that he considers the current way of treating gender dysphoria irresponsible and that, if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and…

You could try this response: treating every every mental health issue as a hallucination is similar to treating every medical issue as a heart attack. As an example, treating depression as if it were the same as hearing voices would hurt the person and be medically irresponsible. And since you wouldn't offer to do heart surgery on a friend, you should also stop trying to be people's psychologist until you are trained and qualified.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#208
post #7

Hanging out in trans circles (as a non-binary person myself), this seems commonly known within the community. Interesting to see research done here, but I'd be careful about over generalizing (e.g. "All trans people are neurodiverse"). Edit: Also, happy to answer questions about being non-binary (specifically, gender fluid) if folks have good faith questions.

Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. If you have heard of it, or read it, I'd love to hear what you think of her position. I appreciate the offer to be part of a dialogue. I think it's import…

I've watched the stream, and it painful. Not only is the book built on very little evidence, but Shrier just gets so many things wrong on stream, I have to wonder if she actually did her homework. Things that aren't even up for debate like effects of HRT, even in instances where it'd strengthen the optics of her argument.

It doesn't help that Rogan only seems to have one hard opinion (legalize drugs) and seems to disagree with most of his guests very little, which makes for a good stage for his guests but not a very balanced discussion.

I'm still hoping he'll eventually have a trans person on (that's not Debbie Hayton, Blair White or Buck Angel).

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, perhaps you're one of the people out there who doesn't strongly identify with any particular gender.

See, this is an exercise in deliberate confusion. If someone said I was female, of course I would contradict them if it was warranted. My male characteristics are objectively verifiable, up to and including having sired children rather than having given birth to them. My identity has nothing to do with any of this. And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms. This is why people always express confusion about w…

> Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex.

Every part of this is wrong.

First, let's look at sex. You've said sex is tied to reproduction (as an aside, this feels a bit cruel to all the infertile people out there) but that's wrong.

https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

> Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

You've then said that gender is tied to sex, but that's only true in some countries at this point in history, and it mostly stems from Christian colonialists imposing their view (often using violence to do so) across the world.

https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

> Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual. The Berdache in North America, the fa’afafine (Samoan for “the way of a woman”) in the Pacific, and the kathoey in Thailand are all examples of different gender categories that differ from the traditional Western division of people into males and females. Further, among certain North American native communities, gender is seen more in terms of a continuum than categories, with special acknowledgement of “two-spirited” people who encompass both masculine and feminine qualities and characteristics. It is apparent, then, that different cultures have taken different approaches to creating gender distinctions, with more or less recognition of fluidity and complexity of gender.

https://gal-dem.com/black-trans-lives-matter-we-cant-let-the...

> There is a particular, deep-rooted racist violence in the UK iteration of transphobia. The invention and export of the concept of a rigid and oppressive gender binary was used as a device of subjugation throughout the British empire during colonialism. This included the attempted eradication of ancient and deeply spiritual understandings and lived realities of gender fluidity, including among two-spirit people in indigenous North American cultures; fa’afafine people in Samoa; nat kadaws in Burma, and hijras in India, who were criminalised during British colonial rule by Section 377 – a law used after a rebellion to “reassert colonial authority”.

You've said that identity is irrelevant to reproductive role. That's wrong, which is why there are trans-fathers who give birth.

https://mana.org/healthcare-policy/use-of-inclusive-language

> The signatures below indicate affirmation and respect for people of all genders; full agreement regarding the use of gender inclusive language in the MANA Core Competencies and in all documents regarding the profession of midwifery and provision of midwifery care; and the welcoming of transgender, genderqueer and intersex people into safe, culturally sensitive, shame-free reproductive health care. We do not refute the “life-giving power in female biology.” Rather, we support a larger vision that includes the provision of midwifery care to all pregnant and birthing people.

You may want to read this: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07238-8

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