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Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

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261–270 of 358 posts

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#261
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if masculine and feminine gender roles are equally difficult to navigate Suicide rates are much higher among males. So maybe this assumption does not hold.

Suicide rates are higher for men, attempted suicide rates are higher for women. Men just tend to use more successful methods in their attempts.

Even within a given category of method of suicide, men are more successful. If you look at countries where gun suicides are pretty much nonexistent, men still "successfully" complete suicide at a rate approximately 10x that of women.

That should be taken as a sign that "suicide attempt" numbers shouldn't be taken at face value as evidence that women have it harder than men.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#262

It's well documented that autistic individuals are having difficulties resolving or tolerating emotionally conflicting situations. If a male non-autist has girlish interests, he might be proud of his uniqueness and thereby accept it as part of himself. For a male autist, the socially conflicting girlish interests will be much more painful, thereby driving a higher percentage of autists to resolve the conflict by adju…

It is surely fraught with peril to just say "well here is an explanation that makes sense to my gut", especially when applied to controversial topics.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not sound and ultimately it’s based in the grief of people who believe they have somehow lost their child (or spouse, or sibling) because they transitioned. I don’t want to minimize the pain of people who have this mindset, no matter how destructive it is. Their sense of loss is genuine and it drives them to the same level of commitment that you see from parents who lose a child to a drunk driver. But, while the…

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I have no agenda here. I have one trans friend (that I know of). After seeing the topic on Rogan's podcast I did some quick searching online and it opened up a few lines of thought I hadn't considered or wasn't aware of. Edit: added "(that I know of)" to acknowledge my limited knowledge of my friend's gender or sexuality.

Rogan has been, at best, insensitive to trans people. Given the volume of people who hold agendas against trans people and trans rights and Rogan's willingness to host people without holding a critical eye to their opinions, I'd be very careful about using his podcast as a jumping off point to the topic. I'd really recommend reading the stories of trans people directly and engaging with the scientific community.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#264
post #109

Autists are disproportionally online. This matters for two reasons. The first is that on the internet you can easily assume any identity. The second is that the trans lobby has much stronger control over online than offline spaces. The pattern is clearly visible in this thread. Views that you might hear from "the man on the street" are flagged or downvoted.

If "the man on the street" shared their views when evaluating a transgender person's job / grant application that would invite discrimination lawsuits in many jurisdictions. That's an IRL flagging.

Oh certainly. But this doesn't change my point. That autists and neurotypicals come across different perspectives due to the differences in how they socialize.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#265
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they have become what they want, they quite well look male/female so you don't have to remember anything. Indeed, you'd have to make an effort to get it wrong. If they are transitioning they're very forgiving of genuine mistakes. Your links don't support your position - did you read them yourself? "Good News: Law Penalizing “Misgendering” with Hefty Fine and/or Jail Time being Legally Challenged" (california) "M…

>Your links don't support your position My position is that it's stupid, and I was illustrating that there are forces that want to make it illegal. And they have succeeded in some places. The Canadian Bill C16 is one example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_H... >I don't think you actually know any TG people. And I think you have no basis for making that assumption. You are wrong.

Indeed. There is a whole subreddit dedicated to documenting instances of people being arrested because of the travesty of justice that is Bill C16: check out https://reddit.com/r/ArrestedCanadaBillC16

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#266
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question. For me it's that sometimes I have those traits and sometimes I don't. I don't really have a set of traits and preferences that is consistent from day to day or hour to hour. Some days I'd prefer others see me as a man, other days I find that repulsive. So, gender fluid, because my gender is dynamic and shifting. I don't always see myself as femme, or masculine, but rather shifting between and around t…

but why bother with gender at all in this case?

The feeling of gender dysphoria is not a pleasant one. Coming to an understanding helped me rationalize and address my anxiety.

Ultimately, gendered stuff is all around us and it is not so easy to "just not bother".

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#267

It's well documented that autistic individuals are having difficulties resolving or tolerating emotionally conflicting situations. If a male non-autist has girlish interests, he might be proud of his uniqueness and thereby accept it as part of himself. For a male autist, the socially conflicting girlish interests will be much more painful, thereby driving a higher percentage of autists to resolve the conflict by adju…

I see arguments like this a lot, and they usually miss the importance and impact of hormonal transition. I'm trans, and thus in trans circles a lot, and almost everyone I know had some high impact mental health issue resolve upon starting hormonal transition, even if those were present before they realized they were trans. These range from generic depression over behavior that gets people autism diagnoses that sudden…

I wonder if studying gender affirmation among cis people wouldn't help to solidify the science behind transitioning and well-being. With presentation of gender being as much of a spectrum as gender itself, it would stand to reason that there are cis individuals who experience dysphoria by way of not physically presenting as as masculine or feminine as they feel themselves to be (waves).

Non-clinical avenues are somewhat more open to them in a way that they aren't to trans folk (e.g., diet and exercise), but I wonder if hormonal supplementation for the express purposes of enhancing gender identification (rather than to correct a clinical deficiency or for birth control) could be beneficial.

EDIT: The great thing about suggesting that cis people might experience gender dysphoria is that it pisses off the transphobes AND trans folk. Anyone looking for an edgy stand-up routine, have I got a subject for you.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#268

It's well documented that autistic individuals are having difficulties resolving or tolerating emotionally conflicting situations. If a male non-autist has girlish interests, he might be proud of his uniqueness and thereby accept it as part of himself. For a male autist, the socially conflicting girlish interests will be much more painful, thereby driving a higher percentage of autists to resolve the conflict by adju…

I see arguments like this a lot, and they usually miss the importance and impact of hormonal transition. I'm trans, and thus in trans circles a lot, and almost everyone I know had some high impact mental health issue resolve upon starting hormonal transition, even if those were present before they realized they were trans. These range from generic depression over behavior that gets people autism diagnoses that sudden…

I would consider neither [1] nor [2] to be of any scientific merit.

=== [1] ===

I find your reference [1] to be incredibly intellectually dishonest:

I agree with the initial paragraph that "gender dysphoria" as well as "dysphoria" in general are not well defined terms. Obviously, I was then expecting a definition by the author, but none was given. Instead, the author moves on to use the term as if it was a well-defined scientific thing.

The list of symptoms that follows is so overly generic as to be useless in practice:

1. Continual difficulty with simply getting through the day

That's called depression.

2. A sense of misalignment, disconnect, or estrangement from your own emotions

Usually called borderline/mania

3. A feeling of just going through the motions in everyday life, as if you’re always reading from a script

My feeling after a day of reading mathematics papers.

4. A seeming pointlessness to your life, and no sense of any real meaning or ultimate purpose.

I've heard that a lot from people who studied languages and then ended up working as a supermarket cashier.

5. Knowing you’re somehow different from everyone else, and wishing you could be normal like them.

I believe everyone has these feelings during puberty.

6. A notable escalation in the severity of these symptoms during puberty

Since you just described common puberty side-effects in #1 to #5, this is not an independent symptom anymore.

7. Attempting to fix this on your own through various coping mechanisms.

Reminds me of guys who are awkward at dating and try to push through by getting drunk.

8. Substantial resolution of these symptoms in a very obvious way upon transitioning, particularly upon initiating HRT

That sounds like "try hormone therapy to see how you like it".

After reading the article, I had a strong feeling that the author is probably selling related drugs and has a financial incentive to classify everything as trans symptoms. And while the author is describing herself like a researcher in this article, she's calling herself "adult demon anti-cis pro-trans activist" elsewhere and she has made this statement:

"I don't see a problem with telling straight guys who are exclusionary of trans women partners that they should try to work through that" Which I find incredibly ignorant and selfish, considering that many men plan to have kids the traditional way and for that goal you necessarily need to exclude trans women partners.

=== [2] ===

Your reference [2] appears to be a bit more scientific at first, but they published in the "highly prestigious" journal "Federation of European Neuroscience Societies and John Wiley & Sons Ltd" which allows anyone who is willing to pay the fees to publish practically anything. As such, the article has exactly 2 citations, both of which have shared authors.

They defined "gender dysphoria" as "An experience of incongruence between gender identity and birth‐assigned sex", meaning their working definition is based purely on self-reported feelings after the fact and, therefore, unsuitable for any scientific analysis.

Plus, the peer review for [2] is online here: https://publons.com/publon/10.1111/EJN.14420/ and you can see that their paper was rejected in the first round with the comment:

When we think of the manuscript as a whole: is there a clear and proven evidence of a "cerebral signature of gender dysphoria"? Please consider revising.

But then it was approved later on by the "co-Editors in Chief, EJN", meaning by the people that get paid from the paper printing fees... That looks like the kind of fake review cycle that I would expect from a pay-to-publish journal.

To sum it up, the fact that this uses scientific terminology and is published in a journal doesn't mean anything. It would only have meaning if it was either well-cited or published in a journal with critical peer review.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#269

If a trans person is mentally ill, you should not perform on him or her an irreversible surgery that removes healthy body parts. The incorrect beliefs are the problem, not the genitals. You would not "confirm" the beliefs of an anorexic that she is fat when she is not.

> You would not "confirm" the beliefs of an anorexic that she is fat when she is not.

That's true. Because we have scientific evidence demonstrating that this is not an effective treatment. The reason why this is not a meaningful analogy is that we have scientific evidence in the opposite direction for transitioning. It works. Medicine does not operate on analogies and gut feelings.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see arguments like this a lot, and they usually miss the importance and impact of hormonal transition. I'm trans, and thus in trans circles a lot, and almost everyone I know had some high impact mental health issue resolve upon starting hormonal transition, even if those were present before they realized they were trans. These range from generic depression over behavior that gets people autism diagnoses that sudden…

I would consider neither [1] nor [2] to be of any scientific merit. === [1] === I find your reference [1] to be incredibly intellectually dishonest: I agree with the initial paragraph that "gender dysphoria" as well as "dysphoria" in general are not well defined terms. Obviously, I was then expecting a definition by the author, but none was given. Instead, the author moves on to use the term as if it was a well-defin…

"After reading the article, I had a strong feeling that the author is probably selling related drugs and has a financial incentive to classify everything as trans symptoms."

For the record, this is just totally false, Zinnia does not sell drugs (do you mean HRT? That would be illegal in the US without a medical or pharmacy license).

"she's calling herself "adult demon anti-cis pro-trans activist" elsewhere"

Pretty sure that's a joke.

"they published in the "highly prestigious" journal "Federation of European Neuroscience Societies and John Wiley & Sons Ltd" which allows anyone who is willing to pay the fees to publish practically anything."

Wiley is the publisher, not the journal. The journal is the European Journal of Neuroscience. I went and checked, and I can see no evidence that this journal is predatory or doesn't meet normal academic peer review standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Journal_of_Neuroscien...

"their working definition is based purely on self-reported feelings after the fact and, therefore, unsuitable for any scientific analysis."

Most things in psychiatry (depression, anxiety, etc.) are based on self-reported feelings, does that make psychiatry "unsuitable for scientific analysis"? Heck, there's a whole academic field about the economics of happiness, which is obviously subjective:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happiness_economics

"and you can see that their paper was rejected in the first round"

Requesting revisions does not mean rejection, it's a normal part of academic peer review.

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