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Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

nature.com

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Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#231

Post by heavenlyblue »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #71
leephillips wrote: post #15

There are so many ways to interpret a correlation such as this. For example, one possible obvious mechanism is that people in the trans community may be more likely to encourage autistic people to believe that they “are transgender”. The study uncritically uses the concept “transgender and gender-diverse individuals have elevated rates of autism” without ascribing any operational meaning to “transgender and gender-di…

Your criticism targets the idiosyncrasies of this particular paper but ignores the multi-front of genetic, neuroimaging, and physiological scientific literature investigating this phenomenon. The author's hypothesis did not occur in a vacuum, nor was this study the one that first proposed it. In the end, the criticism you present seems like troll-baiting the culture wars, making political what scientists are pursuing…

I don’t see the lack of the vacuum discussed in the paper apart from your meta-comment about it, therefore I will not take it as being necessarily true.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#232

Post by yodelshady »

echurilov wrote: post #3

The transgender and gender-diverse vs. cisgender effect sizes are equivalent to or larger than the autism vs. non-autism effect sizes and the cisgender male vs. cisgender female effect sizes in non-autistic individuals. if i understand that right, whether you're trans is a better indicator of whether you have autistic traits than a) your assigned sex or b) whether you are diagnosed with autism

That doesn't necessarily surprise me, actually. I suspect a decent chunk of people here a) consider themselves to have autistic behavioural traits, b) don't see the value of a diagnosis.

The term "diagnosis", to me at least, implies a disorder. Deciding what is a behavioural trait and what is a disorder is, at a guess, not robustly decidable.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#233

Post by paganel »

jmcgough wrote: post #57
neonate wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to hear your theories if you'd be willing to share them.

Trans people in general were largely ignored by research until the 2010s, so there's very little we do know at this point. But as for unresearched hunches... There's lots of jokes in the trans community about how your stereotypical trans girl is on the autism spectrum, with rainbow-colored hair, and into kink, anime, and programming. I think there's more of a willingness to challenge societal expectations of us in th…

Is it not seen as societally acceptable in the States to wear colorful clothes as a male teenager/adolescent? I know I grew up in the ‘90s (in Europe) and as a kid I knew I liked colorful shirts (red, yellow) well into my mid-teens, I didn’t see them as male or non-male. The only comment I received about the color of a thing I own happened relatively recently (I’m almost 40 now), as one of my aunts remarked that my car is “girlish” because of its color (red). I found that strange and an interesting sociological input, but nothing more.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#234

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

encom wrote: post #225
throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's discuss. You see male/female as being genetic therefore effectively unalterable, therefore the label of male/female cannot be changed. I am comfortable with the idea that if a person wishes to be seen in a particular way that I do so. Actual example: a couple I know were F/F when I first met them. Now one prefers to use a male name and be referred to as 'he'. Took a bit of adjusting to, ok. Now genetically one…

(not parent) >Would you call them 'her' to their face, knowing how it could upset them? Maybe, maybe not. What I don't want to do however is keep track of everyones imaginary genders, and face legal repercussions for "misgendering" them. Here's an interesting search to look through: https://duck.com/?q=illegal+misgendering

When they have become what they want, they quite well look male/female so you don't have to remember anything. Indeed, you'd have to make an effort to get it wrong.

If they are transitioning they're very forgiving of genuine mistakes.

Your links don't support your position - did you read them yourself?

"Good News: Law Penalizing “Misgendering” with Hefty Fine and/or Jail Time being Legally Challenged" (california)

"Misgendering is not a crime and not a hate-crime, no. However, it can be a hate-crime if done in combination with another criminal offence, which suggests that the offender is motivated by a hatred for transgender people." (UK)

"California health care workers who “willfully and repeatedly” decline to use a senior transgender patient's “preferred name or pronouns” could face punishments ranging from a fine to jail time under a newly signed law." (california)

so as you see it's mostly about intent.

I don't think you actually know any TG people.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#235

Post by notsureaboutpg »

Freak_NL wrote: post #177
clusterfish wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And eastern gender roles aren't? Is there something I don't know?

'Western' in this context presumably means the binary model of man/woman dominant in the West (e.g., Europe, North America) and gradually exported to be the default worldwide (via colonisation and later cultural exports). There have been, and are, exceptions to this model in what might broadly be called 'the East'. Think of the Hijra on the Indian subcontinent, or the Kathoey (Ladyboys) in Thailand.

Being from India, I'd like to point out that these groups of people you are talking about actually reinforce a gender binary rather than muddling it. Hijra are men who take on all the societal roles of women. They aren't "non-binary" or some "third" gender at all. They espouse and exude femininity, and in India there are two modes of being in society: feminine and masculine. Hijra do not add a third way of being that is separate from both masculinity and femininity.

I'd also argue that their existence is not a proof that Indians have different ideas about gender than Westerners. They are a marginalized people because most of Indian society thinks it is odd / unfortunate / a disorder to be a man and yet want to be socially a woman.

It isn't Western to have two gender roles in society. Men and women are different in lots of ways and it's valuable to society to reinforce differences between the two for the sake of procreation.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#236

Post by Garlef »

paganel wrote: post #233
jmcgough wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans people in general were largely ignored by research until the 2010s, so there's very little we do know at this point. But as for unresearched hunches... There's lots of jokes in the trans community about how your stereotypical trans girl is on the autism spectrum, with rainbow-colored hair, and into kink, anime, and programming. I think there's more of a willingness to challenge societal expectations of us in th…

Is it not seen as societally acceptable in the States to wear colorful clothes as a male teenager/adolescent? I know I grew up in the ‘90s (in Europe) and as a kid I knew I liked colorful shirts (red, yellow) well into my mid-teens, I didn’t see them as male or non-male. The only comment I received about the color of a thing I own happened relatively recently (I’m almost 40 now), as one of my aunts remarked that my c…

> Is it not seen as societally acceptable in the States to wear colorful clothes as a male teenager/adolescent?

Anecdote: I visited the US last year and happened to be invited by a friend to a climbing gym in the bay area. Said friend wore a shirt that was pink/purple. I was there for two hours or so.

In this time he got two comments about the color, jokingly painting a picture of him as being gay.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#237

Post by notsureaboutpg »

crooked-v wrote: post #28
alicemaz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh interesting. I've had a pet theory for awhile now re: trans/autism comorbidity that they're better thought of as symptoms (among others! op's link notes higher incidence of every surveyed mental disorder) of some underlying brain abnormality, rather than being tangled up in some causal relationship with each other. had not heard of gender incoherence theory before

One thing I would respectfully suggest here is to use language like 'atypical' rather than 'abnormal', as it avoids some of the unpleasant subtext of the latter word. (At least so far - the euphemism treadmill makes for an unending race, but it's still worth putting in the effort.)

I am fluent in English and yet this doesn't make any sense to me.

What is the unpleasant subtext of abnormal that is not found in atypical. If you are atypical you deviate from what is typical, aka the vast majority of cases. If you are abnormal you deviate from what is normal, aka the vast majority of cases.

What's the difference?

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#238

Post by Garlef »

klipt wrote: post #110
zaksoup wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the OC but many of my friends and peers are trans and I find "agender" to be the most useful descriptor to myself. One thing I've noted is that once you start to identify the ways in which gender is fundamentally a social construct the link with autistic/neurodivergent folks makes much more sense. Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively na…

> Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively navigate gendered norms and behaviors, simply because the two are inextricable. But if masculine and feminine gender roles are equally difficult to navigate, that doesn't explain why transitioning would help. You'd just be swapping out one difficult gender role with another.

> But if masculine and feminine gender roles are equally difficult to navigate

Suicide rates are much higher among males. So maybe this assumption does not hold.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#239

Post by alchemism »

paganel wrote: post #233
jmcgough wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans people in general were largely ignored by research until the 2010s, so there's very little we do know at this point. But as for unresearched hunches... There's lots of jokes in the trans community about how your stereotypical trans girl is on the autism spectrum, with rainbow-colored hair, and into kink, anime, and programming. I think there's more of a willingness to challenge societal expectations of us in th…

Is it not seen as societally acceptable in the States to wear colorful clothes as a male teenager/adolescent? I know I grew up in the ‘90s (in Europe) and as a kid I knew I liked colorful shirts (red, yellow) well into my mid-teens, I didn’t see them as male or non-male. The only comment I received about the color of a thing I own happened relatively recently (I’m almost 40 now), as one of my aunts remarked that my c…

In New York City you can literally wear anything and no one will say a word or acknowledge your existence as a human being.

But I also knew a boy from rural Texas who was regularly harassed and beaten growing up because he wore athletic clothes (Adidas track suits) instead of cowboy boots and 10-gallon hats.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#240

Post by spicywatermelon »

im3w1l wrote: post #109

Autists are disproportionally online. This matters for two reasons. The first is that on the internet you can easily assume any identity. The second is that the trans lobby has much stronger control over online than offline spaces. The pattern is clearly visible in this thread. Views that you might hear from "the man on the street" are flagged or downvoted.

If "the man on the street" shared their views when evaluating a transgender person's job / grant application that would invite discrimination lawsuits in many jurisdictions. That's an IRL flagging.
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