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Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

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Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#81

Post by fountainofage »

tjr225 wrote: post #73
fountainofage wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But cities have enduring appeal - proximity to people and culture and things to do I think this is key right here. For the foreseeable future, those things won't be any more available in an expensive city compared to an inexpensive rural area. So why buy a 1 bedroom for $2 million or rent one for $3500 a month if I can do the exact same amount of networking and see the exact same amount of museums while paying sign…

Culture and things to do include a lot more than just networking and museums. One example for instance is the vast amount of unique natural beauty surrounding the Bay Area. Even rural places that have that are also expensive- though admittedly not nearly as much so. This is generally reflected in salary though.

Those activities are also restricted and limited during COVID - either explicitly via state and local ordinances or via social pressures to not spread the virus.

Basically, the optimal solution right now is to not go anywhere or see anyone unless you absolutely have to. Which if all someone should be doing is sitting at home or getting groceries, they could do that for a lot less than SF prices.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#82

Post by bluedevil2k »

jeffbee wrote: post #74
x87678r wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is because a big chunk of your rent goes to property taxes. Where I am property taxes are $1k a month for a $3k/mo apartment.

Property tax is not an input to setting the market rate of rental housing, though. Changing the tax does not change the rent. Ask yourself if your rent would decrease if they decreased the taxes. Rent is a simple supply/demand system.

Totally false. Changing the tax rate will definitely change the rent. A property tax increase will increase the floor that tenants (edit: meant landlords) would be willing to rent their places out across the entire city as they look to protect their profit margins. You don't think that a landlord will see a property tax increase and think "oh well, I guess I'm going to make less money from now on". Rent is definitely not a simple supply/demand situation as there are many hands in on the equation (taxes, rent control, zoning).

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#83

Post by _8j50 »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #62
_8j50 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, give the homeless homes and don't complain about homeless shelters in your upscale neighborhood. Reform police, there are major american cities with protests and minimal violence. You complain about symptoms with no regard for the root cause.

Unfortunately, giving the homeless homes doesn't work. For the economically disadvantaged, of course providing free or low cost housing is helpful and welcome. But for the majority, who have mental illness and/or substance abuse issues, a shelter or home often makes little difference. Witness for example the experiment in Manhattan to provide some homeless men with hotel rooms. They literally go downstairs to poop in…

You're absolutley wrong, various studies have been done that prove not only does no strings attached housing reduce homelesness, it is cheaper than having shelters and other economic costs. Finland is already doing this: https://english.best/toeic/exercise/finlands-radical-solutio...

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#84

Post by jhowell »

Shivetya wrote: post #19

Somehow completely ignoring the issue with how the homeless have made many areas of the city uninviting. The pandemic is being exploited by both business and politicians alike to mask underlying issues in hopes of getting a free pass. The old don't look behind the curtain. Protest violence isn't helping any city; and the lie about Federal agents causing it was silences with continued violence long after they left; an…

> Somehow completely ignoring the issue with how the homeless have made many areas of the city uninviting.

Perhaps a more solution oriented statement:

Somehow completely ignoring the issue with how tech has made the homeless in many areas of the city uninvited.

These people would easily prefer to be in DevOps, can learn to run other people's software and call it a job, as we all do, except maybe for issues encountered along the way (housing, direct or indirect mental health crises, food insecurity). Our indifference to, or what we considered not to be priority is coming to the surface.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#85

Post by jeffbee »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #82
jeffbee wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Property tax is not an input to setting the market rate of rental housing, though. Changing the tax does not change the rent. Ask yourself if your rent would decrease if they decreased the taxes. Rent is a simple supply/demand system.

Totally false. Changing the tax rate will definitely change the rent. A property tax increase will increase the floor that tenants (edit: meant landlords) would be willing to rent their places out across the entire city as they look to protect their profit margins. You don't think that a landlord will see a property tax increase and think "oh well, I guess I'm going to make less money from now on". Rent is definitely…

Nope, you're wrong. Your argument rests on the idea that landlords (I assume you meant landlords where you said "tenants") have the ability to raise prices. If they did, they would have already raised them. Landlords who are not subject to rent controls charge whatever the market will bear, and no less. Therefore property tax has no bearing on rent.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#86

Post by gridlockd »

_8j50 wrote: post #36
Shivetya wrote: post #19

Somehow completely ignoring the issue with how the homeless have made many areas of the city uninviting. The pandemic is being exploited by both business and politicians alike to mask underlying issues in hopes of getting a free pass. The old don't look behind the curtain. Protest violence isn't helping any city; and the lie about Federal agents causing it was silences with continued violence long after they left; an…

Ok, give the homeless homes and don't complain about homeless shelters in your upscale neighborhood. Reform police, there are major american cities with protests and minimal violence. You complain about symptoms with no regard for the root cause.

The root cause for a large part of homelessness is mental illness in combination with personal freedom. There is no solution. You can not force people into treatment.

San Francisco just happens to attract more homeless for various reasons.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#87

Post by fulafel »

bamboozled wrote: post #40

Have others noticed this kind of "revolt against cities" attitude lately too? I do wonder if people consider the huge advantages city living can provide? I'm reading constantly that current dream is buying a plot of land in the middle no where, signing up for StarLink and growing watermelons while trying to work a full time engineering job. The thing is though, this is all just a temporary thing, even if this pandemi…

Most cities are small, and most city inhabitants dont live on megacities. The whole debate is diviorced from reality as long as this is ignored.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#88

Post by ghaff »

627467 wrote: post #67
ghaff wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If anything, this will improve the live of those who can't move out of big cities. Maybe. Will that still be true if transit systems and city services generally are in disarray and many of your nice restaurants, cafes, and bars shuttered?

1. While i can understand why certain levels of transit services required a certain baseline of usage I really don't think the scale of the exodus is sufficient to warrant mass disruption of existing transit lines (maybe disrupt the development of new ones is more likely?) 2. I always prefered large cities but I wouldn't say it was mostly due to restaurants, bars and cafes. These I can find anywhere and are cheap to…

>museums, theatres, government offices, sports venues

I don't know. If I want museums and theatres, I can always take a long weekend at one of the relative handful of cities that have world-class ones (that doesn't really include SF). Though, in normal times, I do have a local theatre that I attend a half-dozen times a year that's about an hour drive away. Don't care about sports. I hope to not have to go into government offices.

I do like visiting nice cities but I don't need to live in one full-time to take advantage of many of the amenities.

As for the transit, many cities are facing incredible budget crunches right now. There's a story in the NYT just today. And it's not just the exodus; people who don't have to aren't taking public transit. I've heard numbers like 75%+ decreases in ridership.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#89

Post by luma »

paul_f wrote: post #50
bamboozled wrote: post #40

Have others noticed this kind of "revolt against cities" attitude lately too? I do wonder if people consider the huge advantages city living can provide? I'm reading constantly that current dream is buying a plot of land in the middle no where, signing up for StarLink and growing watermelons while trying to work a full time engineering job. The thing is though, this is all just a temporary thing, even if this pandemi…

What has changed is near universal availability of high speed wireless. Followed by a national experiment in remote working. You don't have to live in the city to have a lucrative tech job.

How long does the “high paying” part stay true when companies who need technical talent can now pull candidates from the entire world? I wonder if the move towards remote work might wind up pushing down IT wages across the board.

edit: instead of downvoting, maybe help me understand why I might be looking at this wrong?

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#90

Post by gridlockd »

_8j50 wrote: post #83
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, giving the homeless homes doesn't work. For the economically disadvantaged, of course providing free or low cost housing is helpful and welcome. But for the majority, who have mental illness and/or substance abuse issues, a shelter or home often makes little difference. Witness for example the experiment in Manhattan to provide some homeless men with hotel rooms. They literally go downstairs to poop in…

You're absolutley wrong, various studies have been done that prove not only does no strings attached housing reduce homelesness, it is cheaper than having shelters and other economic costs. Finland is already doing this: https://english.best/toeic/exercise/finlands-radical-solutio...

That study shows providing housing for free results only in a 35% reduction. Like the GP said, some people can be helped, others not so much.
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