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Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

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Re: Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

#351

FAANG companies can certainly offer more money, but there are lots of things other companies can offer too (besides Ruby on Rails apparently). - ownership of the product and process - less red tape and politics - good work life balance - location other than Silicon Valley - boss who pays attention to engineer needs and wants Money is a huge factor but it isn't the only one!

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Rightly or wrongly, people who have the things you mention start to value them less, and when a FAANG waves a huge stack of green at them it can look very tempting.

Re: Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

#352
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like people try to tell themselves this, but money is BY FAR the most important factor. And FAANGs pay a ton. Maybe this can be true if you're going from like $250k to $270k from FAANG to FAANG. But most of the time we're talking about something like $180k to $250k when getting poached to a FAANG. It would take a huge amount of perks or otherwise to make that gap worth it. (Of course this isn't true for everyo…

I know a guy who passed on Apple because they weren't offering anywhere near that. Are a lot of people really seeing this kind of money?

I've generally seen high 100s low 200s for L3, mid to high 200s for L4, 300s for L5.

This is total comp. I don't know Apple specifically but I'm basing this off of a few of the FAANGs that I have experience with.

Re: Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

#353

There's several reasons a bus is seen as worse than them being poached: * Early startup employees have golden handcuffs regarding switching jobs. Sure, Facebook is offering them $500k but they'd be on the hook for $200k in taxes if they exercise their options and they leave a bunch more un-vested options on the table. * You can mitigate them leaving by having a better work environment, equity and so on. Not much you…

Options for most startups are mostly way overrated. The opportunity cost to hang around for 5-10 years to maybe get to a liquidation event is very high.

Seems like a thing where if a FAANG wanted the early startup employee enough, they would gladly compensate for the one-time cost with a signing bonus.

Re: Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

#354

There's several reasons a bus is seen as worse than them being poached: * Early startup employees have golden handcuffs regarding switching jobs. Sure, Facebook is offering them $500k but they'd be on the hook for $200k in taxes if they exercise their options and they leave a bunch more un-vested options on the table. * You can mitigate them leaving by having a better work environment, equity and so on. Not much you…

I think an important part of the "golden handcuffs" is the employee's sense of deep expertise and importance at their current company, especially if they were a very early hire. Coupled with a bit of impostor syndrome, this can create a huge gravitational well where the employee sticks around even in a bad situation. They are afraid that by switching they will take a huge "demotion" in terms of their overall importance and the weight of their decisions in a new team/company.

Re: Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

#355
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But most of the time we're talking about something like $180k to $250k when getting poached to a FAANG In the last couple years we're talking 2-3x from our BigCo's $150-250K. Getting such an increase people do feel like being hit by a bus - at least my friend looked that way for a few days after getting such 3x offer couple years ago from a FAANG style company :) Our managers don't even try to match - during the 201…

Wait, are you saying 150-250k is standard and you can get more at FAANG? Most senior devs I know aren't breaking $130 in a flyover. To be clear, a lot aren't breaking $100,000.

One promotion from junior at a FAANG can get you to mid 200s.

This is the reason I have a really hard time with the "cost of living" arguments people make when talking about living in the bay area. $2.5k/mon rent is 30k. Even if I'm getting free housing elsewhere, it's generally not worth it.

Re: Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

#356
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You paint a false dichotomy here. These compensation numbers are just as likely in NYC. Work life balance at many of the FAANG companies tends to be better than other companies ( especially startups), and I've had plenty of bosses that pay a great deal of attention to my needs.

I upvoted both your comment and parent. 9 years at a FAANG and I'd willingly trade plenty of my money and golden handcuffs for a workplace that was more productive, creative, with better communication, and so on. But when I look I just find shops with distorted work life balance, pointless whiteboard coding interviews, egotistical pseudo-feudal lord bosses with an illusion of hierarchical dominance, and a bunch of 25…

"when I look I just find shops with [...], egotistical pseudo-feudal lord bosses with an illusion of hierarchical dominance, [...]"

The rest of the traits you list I can usually figure out, but how can you get at that one from just a couple interviews at a company?

Re: Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

#357
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Approximately 10 years ago, I was really unhappy with my work situation and was checking job postings. I found one that sounded right up my alley and I reached out to the agency that posted it. They told me that because I was working for another one of their clients, they wouldn't submit me for the job because they felt it was unethical. I responded that I wasn't owned by my employer and just as they were free to let…

Frankly their actions don’t seem particularly unreasonable to me.

To be denied a career opportunity just because the gatekeeper is biased is unreasonable if you ask me.

That's why I strongly prefer reaching out to companies without any middlemen. The more people are involved, the worse for me.

Re: Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

#358
post #200

Being on the receiving end of poaching is simply a failure to compete in arenas beyond compensation. Not only must you compensate your talent at the top of the market and then some (including generous equity), but you must give your employees an amazing work environment with excellent work/life balance, while providing something for them to work on that motivates them on an ideological level. When any part of this ae…

> Deep down, most people aren't pawns that you can simply acquire with a number and expect the highest quality work from.

In practice, it is extremely rare to find managers who effectively practice this. When you do, it's pretty amazing to watch in action.

I've only seen one such manager out of hundreds I've encountered consulting. That manager's team members won't leave the team for even 2X pay increases, because they figure the additional anticipated stress and job insecurity is not worth it. The amount of trust between that manager and the individual team members is higher than I've ever seen elsewhere, and that manager redefined for me what was possible with people skills superpowers. RDF doesn't even begin to describe it, and this field was accomplished without Jobs' infamous tantrums.

Re: Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really wish we'd stop using the word "poach". It's intentional language used by employers because it has preconceived notions and they succinctly communicate a story that benefits the employer. When you hear poached, you think illegal and victims. It makes you think that the employer has been wronged in some way and that the employee was both participatory in something illegal or at least underhanded and at the s…

> The reality is that the employee was being taken advantage of by the employer and received an offer more closely aligned with their actual value. In the vast majority of cases, I agree. If someone is working at CompuTech for $100K per year, and gets an offer from TechuComp for $110K per year, that's market forces working in favor of the developer. This is a good thing. But there is the possibility for entities the…

> but Google or Tesla or someone might offer them $600K just to prevent competitors from having access to them

This arguments fails on so many dimensions that it must just be a meme. I’ll use Google as the example. For it to work Google has to be able to monopolise the buying of talent.

Most damning, the premise itself is self defeating. Somehow Google is picking the most talented people (delivering far in excess of say $1M marginal returns), yet somehow it is paying well below that to steal that talent and furthermore Google is then wasting that talent (employee delivering value below their pay+overhead). To assume Google chooses to waste talent merely to achieve some low value outcome (damaging a competitor by $1 doesn’t magically enhance Google’s returns by $1 so the factors are way out here) seems to assume the Google is somehow acting against their best financial interests. I don’t think Google is as poorly run as that.

Also:

1. Occam’s razor: Could it be that a Google is actually getting good value by paying very high salaries?

Yes. The average revenue per person for Google is about 160G$ / 115kiloemployees = 1M4 per employee. I do note that using an average is silly because the value distribution is not flat, but neither is the employee salary distribution flat. But the figure is so large, average does say something useful for back-of-envelope calcs.

2. Can Google monopolise by buying power alone?

No. Other companies have similarly high returns per employee (Apple is 260G$/160kiloemployees, Netflix is 20G$/20kiloemployees) so for Google to outbid them, it needs to outbid above the marginal revenue per employee, which clearly is well above a 600k$ salary.

3. Can Google corner the market for talent by restricting supply?

No. We know that there are plenty of talented developers because Google isn’t the only company making over $1M revenue per employee. Google employs about 115000 people. Let’s say 50000 of those were “overpaid“ to remove them from the competitors. If the total pool of equivalent talent were as small as 250000, then Google couldn’t monopolise talent. Yet other companies with high revenues per employee have a sum total of employees higher than 250000. Furthermore Google’s returns per effective employee become ~$2.8M/employee, so Google can obviously afford to pay $1M for talent it really wants!

Re: Developer won’t get hit by a bus, they’ll get hired by Netflix

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, it's much more difficult to quantify the impact of a software engineer compared to investment bankers and consultants. The latter two are directly making money for the firm. Yes, it is difficult, but possible. Here's quick and dirty analysis - consider Sears, Walmart, and Amazon: - Amazon pays its engineers near top of market - $1.5T market cap. - Walmart has a pretty good engineering culture. They acquired a…

I deduce that investment in software engineers == higher stock price. Easy to do when you cherry-pick three companies. Run your analysis on 10,000 companies large and small and you might have something.

> Easy to do when you cherry-pick three companies.

* Netflix vs Blockbuster

* Uber / Lyft vs taxi cabs

* Airbnb vs hotels

* Blogs vs print media

* Youtube /Instagram vs TV

* porn tube sites vs porn studios

I could keep going.

I've also tried the corollary - companies that are successful while cutting cost in tech, but I can't think of any successful companies that are cutting investment in tech.

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