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Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

theguardian.com

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Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#61

I'm right now in a Norwegian plane to come back from France to Norway. There is a quarantine since midnight, which is a good thing. There is a reason that France and Norway do not have the same numbers, French people are pretty bad at taking the covid19 measures seriously. I'm not thinking about the government but the population in general. It's a bit frustrating because it's not very difficult to be careful. I have…

Wow. Just wow.

You claim French people aren't taking covid measures seriously, yet you are behaving as a potential human carrier of the virus by travelling abroad.

And you have the nerve to complain about people coughing on the plane...

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#62
The headline is a little misleading, the actual advice contains exceptions.

The relevant government webpage (https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/foreign-affairs/reisein...) says:

"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is maintaining its global advice against all non-essential travel to all countries. This advice currently applies until 20 August. Exceptions have been made for countries and regions in the Nordic region and in the Schengen area/EEA that meet the criteria for infection levels set by the Norwegian Institute of Public Health. The infection situation and local restrictions can change very quickly. Anyone thinking about travelling abroad should consider all the potential ramifications beforehand and should make sure that they know what the situation is in the place they are planning to visit."

The Public Health Institute website has the details of which countries meet the criteria for travel, see https://www.fhi.no/en/op/novel-coronavirus-facts-advice/fact....

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just visit Canada from the USA. Canadians think that Americans are dying in the streets from Covid-19. They're calling the police on anyone with US license plates, harassing people from the USA, etc. The News is running articles that Canadians are fed up with Americans, etc, https://www.rawstory.com/2020/08/canadians-fed-up-with-unwan... It's like they don't understand that things are in control and there are well ov…

> It's like they don't understand that things are in control There are about 70,000 detected cases a day... it’s certainly the case that widespread US tourism in Canada by people who haven’t been tested or gone through a 14-day quarantine could result in a significant amount of virus being spread. Various US states have these restrictions on travel from other states as well, e.g. Hawaii and Maine. Massachusetts is cu…

When death rates are measured based on outcomes, as in one either recovers, or is dead, the risk is 3 to 7 percent depending on where you are in the world.

(Dead people)/(recovered people) = (death rate)

Doing the math based on infection ignores the fact that many cases are in progress, outcome unknown. This makes for much smaller numbers, and a less realistic risk perception based on lack of data for the scope of risk being evaluated.

Flat out, we do not yet know whether active cases will turn bad. This also means death rates can and will change over time too. By tracking outcomes we can understand the impact of science and policy, as well as mother nature and how the virus itself continues to mutate.

Further, there is a secondary risk of ongoing, potentially chronic, complications. People may recover, but are changed significantly. Data on that is harder to boil down.

My own outcome is profound fatigue. It is significant and appears very slow to improve. Being sick was no joke. Being more tired for months on end now isn't either.

And I am fortunate, due to fatigue being among the more mild of the potential bad outcomes we know about today.

Surviving the virus does not always mean returning to normal.

Those governments acting to prevent harm are on stronger ground than many may be aware of.

The health care system costs will be serious and endure for a long time, even by measures of what governments consider a long time. In the US, that will be acute, due to our current policy. Other nations are well justified in many of their policies for this reason alone.

Health care impact translates into increased death rates from other causes. Flatten the curve is about that as much as it is being able to manage the death rate direct from COVID down.

Right now, death is understated and poor health outcomes more seriously missing from the policy discussion, as are the timelines and potential costs, efficacy of our potential remedies.

This mess is here with us for a long time. A poorly managed, non global discussion only makes it all worse across the board, risks, costs, quality of life, etc.

It is time to realize COVID is more likely to transition to endemic than we are to return to life and business as it was last year.

That will be true for humans on this planet period.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a bi-national away from my fragile parents, I'm glad governments take the situation seriously and don't get distracted anymore by the constant flow of accusations of "xenophobia" by the self-righteous self-proclaimed "anti-racist" mob.

If governments took the situation seriously, they would prohibit travel within countries just as much as between them.

Some governments do exactly that where and when it is believed to be necessary. France, for instance, forbade people from travelling further than 100 km from home at one time.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#65
post #39
post #4

I get that. I can give up seeing the Louvre this summer. But my loved one is in another country and the last thing my heart needs is more lock-downs. We need to consider what closed borders are doing to bi-national married / unmarried couples. They've been a largely ignored demographic during this pandemic and collateral damage due to the broad and sweeping policies that have taken place on the borders.

This is extremely egoistic post. You, a single individual, can infect tens of persons, without even knowing it, who spread the disease further, and of whom someone will die. Is satisfying your heartache worth starting a chain of deaths? The more people feel like they're a special-case snowflakes who should be exempt from travelling restrictions, the longer this situation is going to last.

The desire to be with your life partner, that's something I wouldn't put in the "extremely egoistic" category.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have resources? Your comment is reckless and alarmist.

You're joking, right? edit: in case you aren't: US: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/2120-anti-asian-hate-incid... UK: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/13/anti-asian-hat... Australia: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/victoria-urged-to-toughen-hate-c...

Meanwhile in a China, foreigners (white/black people) are being kicked out of their homes and forced to sleep on the street, restaurants (including a McDonald’s) are refusing to serve foreign customers, foreigners are refused entry to malls, foreigners are unable to access important government-issued apps, etc. Asians aren’t the only ones affected.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#67
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're joking, right? edit: in case you aren't: US: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/2120-anti-asian-hate-incid... UK: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/13/anti-asian-hat... Australia: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/victoria-urged-to-toughen-hate-c...

Meanwhile in a China, foreigners (white/black people) are being kicked out of their homes and forced to sleep on the street, restaurants (including a McDonald’s) are refusing to serve foreign customers, foreigners are refused entry to malls, foreigners are unable to access important government-issued apps, etc. Asians aren’t the only ones affected.

The original comment did say it was only one example. But I'm a bit concerned about the tone of this response - we strive to prevent discrimination just because discrimination is bad, not as some kind of reciprocal favor to the Chinese government.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#68
post #61

I'm right now in a Norwegian plane to come back from France to Norway. There is a quarantine since midnight, which is a good thing. There is a reason that France and Norway do not have the same numbers, French people are pretty bad at taking the covid19 measures seriously. I'm not thinking about the government but the population in general. It's a bit frustrating because it's not very difficult to be careful. I have…

Wow. Just wow. You claim French people aren't taking covid measures seriously, yet you are behaving as a potential human carrier of the virus by travelling abroad. And you have the nerve to complain about people coughing on the plane...

If you talk to Norwegians about Norwegians, you'll discover that we're very good at patting ourselves on the back. You might say that we're one of the best countries in the world when it comes to patting ourselves on the back.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#69
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like they don't understand that things are in control There are about 70,000 detected cases a day... it’s certainly the case that widespread US tourism in Canada by people who haven’t been tested or gone through a 14-day quarantine could result in a significant amount of virus being spread. Various US states have these restrictions on travel from other states as well, e.g. Hawaii and Maine. Massachusetts is cu…

When death rates are measured based on outcomes, as in one either recovers, or is dead, the risk is 3 to 7 percent depending on where you are in the world. (Dead people)/(recovered people) = (death rate) Doing the math based on infection ignores the fact that many cases are in progress, outcome unknown. This makes for much smaller numbers, and a less realistic risk perception based on lack of data for the scope of ri…

Calculating “death rate” with a denominator of “recovered people” is simply lying with data: of all of the covid metrics, “recovered people” is the least well reported.

Of the millions and millions of people who have now had this virus and recovered without incident, only a small fraction have seen the inside of a medical facility. Only a tiny fraction of those have had “recovery” reported, and even when it is reported, it generally lags by months. The only reason you would divide “deaths” by that number is to mislead people and scare them.

The overall IFR for this virus is somewhere around 0.1-0.6%. That is the actual chance a person will die if they catch it. For healthy people under the age of ~50, divide that by ten (at least).

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#70

When two countries each discourage or prohibit travel to or from the other, they cannot both be right, and the policy may be motivated by more than public health concerns. It's possible to make a case that travel in and of itself is risky, as you will spend more time in enclosed spaces with strangers than usual, including planes, airports, public transport, taxis, and hotel lobbies. But much of that also applies to d…

TL;DR We had it under control, but we are losing control. So we need to take action now (limit importation of new cases and new local spread) before a new lockdown is needed. Hence the holiday (from social distancing measures) is over. The problem is that Norwegians have essentially had a vacation from worrying about Covid, since there has been more or less no new cases since May-June. This has made the Norwegian pop…

> we are losing control.

No. We are taking the expected action to prevent a loss of control. A small variation in infection rates is inevitable and the smaller the rate the greater the visibility of the variation.

I agree though that a few people do seem to have decided that there is no longer any need to worry, luckily I only see them in the pages of the newspapers. In my daily life and weekend shopping trips, including visits to cafés, I haven't seen any noteworthy carelessness. This is in the area surrounding Drammen, Asker, Fornebu.

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