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US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

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Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#811

Post by Bhilai »

cwhiz wrote: post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

We are not China and we dont want our countries to behave or become like China.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#812

Post by illustriousbear »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776
cwhiz wrote: post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

Genuinely surprised that Chinese shills / psyops are targetting HackerNews. Seeing a lot of comments like this one which follow the standard handbook response.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#813

Post by charia »

pradn wrote: post #723
krtkush wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this is leading me to have a stronger belief in Nassim Taleb's "The Most Intolerant Wins" theory[1]. Though, in this case there is no minority as such. China was intolerant to the US's ideology and exploited its openness for its own benefit. Now, unfortunately, it has come to a point where even US has to be intolerant like China to be able to get back at it. Thoughts? [1] https://nassimtaleb.org/2016/08/intoleran…

A related idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance 'The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly paradoxical idea that, "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance."'

Any view can be described as intolerant. Stamping out, “intolerant” views is one of the reasons many authoritarian regimes uses to stamp out dissent.

The United States did this when it persecuted leftist sympathizing folks back in the 50's. "If we don't kill communism, then communism will kill our society. These filthy socialists and communists preach intolerance with rhetoric against the hardworking American. Tolerating them will only get us killed."

The USSR did this by sending people who questioned party agenda straight to the gulags. "By going against party thinking, these people are pushing for an intolerant society that is stratified with the class structures of old. We need to get rid of them before they ruin our perfect tolerant society."

The same logic is used to try to stamp out Muslims in countries like India right now and other places in the world historically. "If we leave the intolerant Muslims around, they'll bring forth Jihad and enforce Sharia law on everyone. The Koran is very intolerant about how non-Muslims should be treated, we need to force them out because their intolerant views are a threat to tolerance everywhere."

Literally every Christian country post-Martin Luther in the middle ages used that logic to wage wars on other Christian countries. Not just Christian vs. Christian of course. It's why countries in the past fought against each other over religion so much. When intolerance is defined as views that I don't agree with, it becomes kill or be killed world.

One of the best features of the enlightenment thinking is the concept of tolerance. One of the fundamental principles of Western thought. The idea that, we might have fundamentally opposing views, but can we interact without having to resort to a scorched earth policy. It started with Christians tolerating other sects of Christianity, but it’s now encompassed nearly every historical division.

The paradox of tolerance is inherently wrong, because true tolerance requires you to be tolerant to beliefs that you believe are intolerant.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#814

Post by WillistheWillow »

Trump doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

China is creating a social credit system that exerts a ridiculous amount on control over its citizens, and spies on their every move. Who in their right mind doesn't think that they would force TikTok to do the same on global citizens - not to mention manipulate them with propaganda.

Not to mention that whole imprisonment, torture, enslavement, and sterilization of the entire Turkic Uighur population. The real question is why do we tolerate ANYTHING Chinese?

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#815

Post by AbrahamParangi »

zolosa wrote: post #809
AbrahamParangi wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider every concern about facebook having too much power on things like elections. Now imagine if facebook were controlled by an adversarial authoritarian regime.

Or looking at the PRISM program it's better to ban Facebook and it's children companies rather than imagining .

It would not be at all unreasonable for other countries to ban US social media companies.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#816

Post by smnrchrds »

youeseh wrote: post #793
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

- Does the US prevent European tech companies from doing business in America? - Does the US prevent European people from finding work, moving to, and purchasing property in America?

Right now, it doesn't. But I don't think it is because they are OK with European companies dominating US market. It is rather because there are no European companies at the moment capable of dominating US market. The moment a company in Europe starts to gain significant market share from American companies in the US, the government would (most probably) step in and stop them.

I'm not European, but here in Canada, I have seen how the US treats its trade partners. Trump forced Canada to renegotiate NAFTA and got many concessions from us. Less than 2 months after his new trade deal came into force, he is imposing a 10% tariff on aluminum imports [1]. Before aluminum, it was softwood lumber. In the middle, there was Bombardier passenger airplanes.

The funny thing is, in order to force Canada to renegotiate NAFTA, the US imposed tariff's on Canadian steel and aluminum under the guise of "national security" [2]. That is why I don't buy any claims on national security excuses for putting tariffs or expelling companies. It's mercantilism, plain and simple. But because it is frowned upon to talk about mercantilism in this day and age, the US administration always covers its mercantilism with a thin veneer of market fairness and national security.

Either that, or Canada is actually a national security threat to the US.

[1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trump-aluminum-tariff-1.567...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/19/us/politics/trump-nationa...

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#817

Post by savingsPossible »

Aunche wrote: post #799
bjo590 wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should outright ban any goods or technology that originates in China If we were to start that ban many of Walmart's non-grocery (and some groceries) shelves would be empty for considerable time. I'm unsure there even are alternatives that can meet US demand for everything China provides.

What's most likely to happen if we try an outright ban is that Vietnam and similar developing countries will start slapping on a "Made in Vietnam" sticker on Chinese goods and exporting them to the US.

And then we fix this next problem, right?

That is no argument to avoid a policy. That is an argument to prepare for the next steps.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#818

Post by pupdogg »

bigpumpkin wrote: post #798
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

Yep. Why should Canada align with the US when the US just imposed a tariff on ~$8 billion of aluminum on National Security grounds: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/06/trump-says-he-signed-order-r...

Tariffs aside, considering Canada is our neighbor and has roughly 68k active military personnel vs 1.28 million in US, it should most definitely align itself with US on national security grounds. I believe that if Canada was ever under threat from another state, that US would definitely step in to help. Also, this is apples-to-apples comparison because the total land area (to be protected) covered by each state is approx. equal (6 million square miles or 9.8 million square kilometers).

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#819

Post by nostrademons »

gruez wrote: post #785
pradn wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A related idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance 'The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly paradoxical idea that, "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance."'

>Karl Popper described it as the seemingly paradoxical idea that, "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance."' Is it paradoxical? There's "no paradox of peace", the idea that "In order to maintain a peaceful society, the society must be violent against the non-peaceful"

Quakers, hippies, the anti-war movement, and many others would disagree with you.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#820

Post by joey_bob »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776
cwhiz wrote: post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

> Now that the US has shown it can ban foreign tech companies if it's in their own interest, and all the moralizing talk about the free market has been exposed as the self-serving propaganda it has always been, what reason do be exactly have to keep playing this game where we are the biggest losers?

One of the ideas behind the structure of our republic is that there can be peaceful changes in power between different governments. What I mean to say is that the US is not one person, not even the US government. So, the moralizing talk about the free market has not always been duplicitous as you seem to imply. The protectionist actions you see now are just taken by the current government, who even on its own, doesn’t seem to have harp on the need for a free market very much. This is especially true when you compare it to the last government that was backing the TPP, something that was promptly killed after the regime change.

Otherwise I agree with your conclusion, European countries should chart their own way. Gotta watch those negative interest rates though, might be a little trickier in a closed economy.

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