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Why forgiving someone else is about you

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Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#201

Post by waterhouse »

bschne wrote: post #10
choonway wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about making sure the person who did it to you does not profit from it?

By itself, that seems like sunk costs to me - preventing someone else from profiting from a disadvantage they put you at does not necessarily remediate said disadvantage. But there's certain ways in which it could be "rational" - e.g. preventing them from doing you harm again in the future by scaring them off with your revenge, evening out some sort of competitive position so that you are on the same level again, or…

Are you familiar with the game-theoretic definition of a threat? A threat is when I say that, if you do X (which I don't want), then I will do Y, and Y hurts both you and me. (If Y benefited me, then we'd expect me to do Y anyway, so the threat would make no difference.)

Carrying out a threat is, therefore, always irrational. However, if I could make you believe that I would carry out the threat, then I could get you to not do X, which would be good for me.

If I can modify my own mind so that, if you do X, then I am obsessively driven to carry out Y—"revenge"—and I make this obvious to you, then modifying my mind in that way is rational for me to do. (Of course, the only key part is making you believe that my mind works like this. But as a species, I think humans are not especially good liars—probably for good reasons, so that threats and promises are possible—and the most reliable approach to making you think I'm like that is to be like that.) I think this is why there is a built-in drive for revenge.

Now, the drive for revenge doesn't always win. In the ancestral environment, carrying out revenge against the wrong enemy may simply get you killed. It's possible that "knowing when to back off" has been selected for. (Perhaps the neural circuitry sometimes perceived natural forces like rain, or stronger creatures like tigers (possibly the relevant evolving happened before we got good at hunting), as the "enemy".) Which then opens the door to trying to intimidate the other party even further so they don't try for revenge, or to bluffing that you're not intimidated, or to guessing (perhaps incorrectly) that the other side is bluffing, and so on.

Anyway, that is the mess we are left with.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#202

Post by Lammy »

coldtea wrote: post #19
paulsutter wrote: post #7

In which we learn that forgiveness is a suitcase word (prone to useless debate as each party uses a different definition) https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-words/

Aren't those the only words that matter? Anything else, that everybody is clear and agrees on, might as well not be discussed at all...

The real problem is when you and another person have a different working definition of something "everyone is clear and agrees on" and make plans or agreements around the assumption of shared definition. The way you will find out will not be fun.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#203

Post by sngz »

basch wrote: post #175
sngz wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i moved on with my life without forgiving someone. someone apologizing for what they did is the first step to forgiveness. You can't forgive someone who feels no remorse for what they did. They used to be part of my life now they are insignificant. Seems like your definition of forgiveness is different from mine.

>You can't forgive someone who feels no remorse for what they did. Yes you can. "I am beyond this event." Making forgiveness contingent on someone elses action removes your own agency. Forgiveness isnt a gift you give someone else.

>Making forgiveness contingent on someone elses action removes your own agency.

says who? Never said forgiveness is a gift. You you have to earn it. One has to be deserving of it. In fact what everyone seems to be saying here makes it sound like it should be a gift, given with no conditions.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#204

Post by sngz »

ta1234567890 wrote: post #142

"Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" Recently I realized I was poisoning myself with intense negative thoughts and feelings about someone. Then I also noticed those thoughts feelings were only impacting me, not the other person at all. Finally I decided to forgive that person for what they had done to me, and when I started that process it became evident that in order to acco…

> "Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die"

only true if the hate is affecting your life and taking over you

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#205

Post by waterhouse »

nicoburns wrote: post #21
willcipriano wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with all things in life it really depends on how you frame it. As a young man I encountered many people who were unkind, told me that my goals were impossible and mocked me for my ambition. Now that I have succeeded at those aims and continued to grow as a human being it is a great feeling to encounter those people in life and see that they haven't been as successful as I have. I can't help but think that I perhap…

Proving someone wrong isn't revenge. Revenge would be if you used your newfound position of power to actively hurt them in some way.

I think we have evolved an obsessive drive to inflict harm on those who have wronged us—known as revenge. It seems willcipriano's brain has mapped its revenge drive into working hard and achieving good things. And we all benefit. Let us be grateful to willcipriano's brain.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#206

Post by sngz »

elliekelly wrote: post #171
sngz wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i moved on with my life without forgiving someone. someone apologizing for what they did is the first step to forgiveness. You can't forgive someone who feels no remorse for what they did. They used to be part of my life now they are insignificant. Seems like your definition of forgiveness is different from mine.

> You can't forgive someone who feels no remorse for what they did. Why not?

cause they don't deserve it

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#207

Post by GavinMcG »

yarrel wrote: post #173
GavinMcG wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But does what I'm saying also happen? Because if so, you're conflating forgiving with forgetting. This is advocating forgiveness, not forgetfulness.

But if you forgive them why would you not have further dealings with them? After all, they haven't done anything harmful in your revised opinion.

Forgiveness isn't endorsement of the behavior. And it also doesn't depend on their changing. Maybe they won't change. Forgiveness is when you change, such that you are no longer unduly influenced in your present life by the pain they caused in the past.

So you might not have further dealings with them because emotionally releasing the power their actions have over you doesn't mean you're going to grant them power over you again. You can forgive and still distrust; you can forgive and set/enforce boundaries; you can forgive and still change how you pick the people you open up to or allow to influence your life. There's lots of ways to both forgive and move forward, rather than backward.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#208

Post by basch »

sngz wrote: post #203
basch wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can't forgive someone who feels no remorse for what they did. Yes you can. "I am beyond this event." Making forgiveness contingent on someone elses action removes your own agency. Forgiveness isnt a gift you give someone else.

>Making forgiveness contingent on someone elses action removes your own agency. says who? Never said forgiveness is a gift. You you have to earn it. One has to be deserving of it. In fact what everyone seems to be saying here makes it sound like it should be a gift, given with no conditions.

>You you have to earn it. One has to be deserving of it.

That removes your agency. You can't forgive without getting something from them first. If they never give, you never forgive, and you continue to live with the hurt.

Making forgiveness contingent on deserving, earning, or being worthy of it is something else entirely. The other person need not be involved in forgiveness in any way.

A gift is something you give someone else. Saying "they dont deserve it" implies you seeing it as something you give someone else. Forgiveness is only between you and yourself.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#210

Post by mcguire »

sngz wrote: post #204
ta1234567890 wrote: post #142

"Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" Recently I realized I was poisoning myself with intense negative thoughts and feelings about someone. Then I also noticed those thoughts feelings were only impacting me, not the other person at all. Finally I decided to forgive that person for what they had done to me, and when I started that process it became evident that in order to acco…

> "Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" only true if the hate is affecting your life and taking over you

Hate, almost by definition, is similar to love: you make your happiness dependent on the state of someone else.

If hate is not affecting your life, it's not hate.

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