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Why forgiving someone else is about you

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Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#151

Post by jkingsbery »

jonstaab wrote: post #116

There's some truth to this, but this therapeutic reduction does a disservice to the traditional (and fuller) practice of forgiveness: > In the new therapeutic dispensation, however, forgiveness is all about the forgiver, and his or her power and well-being. We have come a long way from Shakespeare’s Portia, who spoke so memorably in The Merchant of Venice about the unstrained “quality of mercy,” which “droppeth as th…

I agree. From a high-minded perspective, "Forgiveness has a PR problem" only if one is talking about a group that ignores the canon of religious teachers and what they've said about the importance of forgiveness and mercy, and what that actually means.

From a more basic approach, I don't know what playground Holub was on as a kid leading her to say "we're taught what we'll call "traditional" forgiveness when we're 4 or 5 years old," but I was taught based on Mr. Rogers (and my daughters were taught based on Daniel Tiger), that forgiveness still requires consequences. (See: "Saying sorry is the first step, then how can I help": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oICZVpmtL4c).

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#152

Post by chaoticmass »

brightball wrote: post #30
hawk_ wrote: post #2

While law doesn't have place for revenge in a civilised society and rightly so, the need for revenge/retribution I suspect is quite innate. It's healthy to try to forgive but it's quite difficult, almost like you can't fool yourselves into thinking you aren't hungry.

Anecdotal I know, but I tried for 2 years to forgive someone who had deeply wronged my family, but I simply couldn’t get past feeling like we needed to go to court to make it right and it was eating me up inside. My wife suggested I ask God to help, which I hadn’t tried and didn’t think it would make a difference but I tried it. And it worked. The next day the anger was just...gone and remains so to this day. I reali…

Reminds me of something my Dad sent me when I was dealing with grief over someone who wronged me. It's from the Alcoholics Anonymous book, but I found the advice worked anyway. Here's the scan from the book: https://imgur.com/a/XlkPGLp

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#153

Post by [deleted] »

skinkestek wrote: post #115
NumberCruncher wrote: post #114

"To forgive and forget means to throw away dearly bought experience.” - Schopenhauer

I used to believe that those two were the same but since a few years ago I have come down closer to this. That said I really do forgive even if I don't always forget: - the person will get cake/discounts/etc and I won't seek revenge - I might not however hire them / defend them / etc I've struggled a bit with this and a number of similar problems since according to my religion there's no forgiveness for me unless I f…

[deleted]

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#154

Post by ta1234567890 »

A bit off topic but related, saying sorry means different things and it's used differently in different cultures[1].

In the US in particular, apologizing usually implies taking the guilt or responsibility (and sometimes even liability) for what happened. Unfortunately, this creates a huge incentive to not apologize, which then easily turns into bad feelings, grudges, anger and sometimes even lawsuits.

Interestingly, in the case of malpractice, apologizing reduces the chances a patient will file a lawsuit[2]. I wonder how many fewer lawsuits we would have, and how much healthier of a society we would be if we all apologized more.

[1] https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/12004-apologies-around-the...

[2] https://www.natlawreview.com/article/you-had-me-i-m-sorry-im...

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#155

Post by jerkstate »

ogurechny wrote: post #79
jerkstate wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well like elsewhere in the thread, people have mentioned that forgiveness is a complicated word. You should definitely learn to "let it go" regardless of whether you've received any apology, in terms of not letting it affect your psyche negatively, but in terms of future interactions with someone who wronged you and can't show contrition or growth, you have no obligation to put yourself into a position where they can…

“Letting it go to feel better”, in my opinion, is also an accounting, some self-objectifying robot maintenance. It is strange that people find it hard to imagine how to forgive without receiving anything back. For one thing, I seriously doubt I'm in position to judge “growth” of other people.

I’m just not sure why I would continue to interact with someone who treated me badly without remorse. You might call it accounting or game theory, I call it self-preservation.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#156

Post by sngz »

joelmichael wrote: post #124
sngz wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll have to disagree with that. I cut out a bunch of toxic people from my life and moved across the country and I still hate them but people like them don't come across my mind at all unless mutual acquaintances bring them up. I even came across my bully from middle school in a random city I visited, and had drinks with him and his girlfriend that he was calling a retard throughout the whole night and was clear that…

Haha, yeah, that doesn't sound bitter and hateful at all.

not denying that part. And i have no problem with it since it doesn't control or take up my life. I'm happier now that I cut those people out and watched some of them get what they deserve. Go tell someone who is happy that the person who murdered their sibling got what they deserved that they are bitter and hateful.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#157

Post by sngz »

basch wrote: post #134
sngz wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll have to disagree with that. I cut out a bunch of toxic people from my life and moved across the country and I still hate them but people like them don't come across my mind at all unless mutual acquaintances bring them up. I even came across my bully from middle school in a random city I visited, and had drinks with him and his girlfriend that he was calling a retard throughout the whole night and was clear that…

> Do I forgive him? no, especially since he never apologized. what you are describing is not forgiveness. It's called moving on. Forgiveness is moving on. It is letting go of your negative emotions. Needing someone else to apologize to "give forgiveness" is not how forgiveness needs to work.

i moved on with my life without forgiving someone. someone apologizing for what they did is the first step to forgiveness. You can't forgive someone who feels no remorse for what they did. They used to be part of my life now they are insignificant. Seems like your definition of forgiveness is different from mine.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#159

Post by hawk_ »

jakear wrote: post #130
hawk_ wrote: post #2

While law doesn't have place for revenge in a civilised society and rightly so, the need for revenge/retribution I suspect is quite innate. It's healthy to try to forgive but it's quite difficult, almost like you can't fool yourselves into thinking you aren't hungry.

> you can't fool yourselves into thinking you aren't hungry Interesting take. Friends of mine who grew up in poverty would tend to disagree - from what I’ve heard it becomes very natural to ignore hunger to the point of it going away entirely. This is more or less the only way to have a semi-pleasant life, given you won’t be at a healthy nutrition level regardless.

Yes absolutely. But this is subjective as well is part of my premise. Like some people may be genetically predisposed to not saying no to food etc... in my experience the desire to get revenge is hard to overcome for a fairly large part of the population. So teaching forgiveness is equivalent of asking people to diet or exercise... it's really difficult.
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