Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress • Hacker News Board

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#251

Post by nradov » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

thelittleone wrote: post #111

johnchristopher wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What parasites are we talking about and what's a 6 day liver cleans ? (I mean, the procedure). Do you mean to say you had depression for a few months (with anxiety on top) ?

I had ups and downs after the first anxiety attack occurred but if normalized it was certainly a gradual decline into depression. Anxiety would come and go and although i never considered suicide I did wonder if I would be better of dead. The liver flush I did involved a morning celery and lemon juice. 5 light meals. 1L of apple juice spread throughout the day. After dinner a glass of water with epsom salts (tastes l…

"Also, people who try gallbladder cleansing might see what looks like gallstones in their stool the next day. But they're really seeing globs of oil, juice and other materials."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gallstones/ex...

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#252

Post by solinent » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

The concept of "chemical imbalance" is a great tool to sell some chemicals to get ya balanced, however. Maybe the chemicals in good food are what we really need.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#253

Post by minerjoe » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #233

ditonal wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very common for people on HN to tout the benefits of their ADHD diagnosis and I feel compelled to point out that getting on ADHD meds was one of the worst mistakes of my life. They triggered a manic episode. The psychiatrist solutions to all my problems was always more meds, different meds, etc. I've mentioned this a few times and I'm always accused of abusing them but the truth is I took a small dose as prescri…

As a counter point, being diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed medication was one of the best things to have ever happened to me. Everybody is different though, medication is beneficial for some and detrimental for others. It's important to be aware of your mental state and how treatment (whether drugs or other) affects it, and to be able to make informed choices regarding treatment. A good doctor/shrink should take in…

> deadset against prescribing stimulant medication to children

I've seen it first hand. Child is beautiful and active and happy and sad and angry and living and the Mother just can't handle it and BAM - drugs.

Child grows up, becomes a teenager. Prescription drugs stop. Teenage moves to Methamphetamine, start cooking. Eventually is busted and jailed.

The connection, for me, is clear.

I feel very very lucky that I grew up before the ADHD diagnosis was a thing as I could have easily been that child.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#254

Post by jschwartzi » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #215

stanfordkid wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think his ideas and cultural critiques are a little more complicated than that — his book Island in particular is worth reading — it is the ideal mirror to the dystopia he describes in brave new world. Essentialism is a moral critique. If you stick a tiger in a small cage it doesn’t breed — that is an objective observation rather than a moral critique. Huxleys argument is of the same nature — that society is becomi…

If tigers were not somewhat dangerous it wouldn't be much harder than breeding housecats, except they are larger and eat more. Every so often they catch somebody breeding tigers in shockingly small cages. How can society not be "a cage" in some respects? How about the arguments from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_and_Its_Disconten...

A humane society wouldn't require us to shutter our emotions behind closed doors. It wouldn't treat life events such as bereavement or a change in circumstance as if they're merely caused by a chemical imbalance. If my friend or my fiancee dies then I'm damn well going to feel sad. I might cry in public sometimes. To suggest that there is something wrong with me for doing that is massively inhumane. And it's at the core of how brain-damaged society is in the US.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#255

Post by minerjoe » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #245

viburnum wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a view that ADHD is badly named, because many ADHD people have incredible focus (at times), and many are not hyperactive in the least. It’s more of an issue about emotional dysregulation, which can be exceptionally painful for those who suffer.

> because many ADHD people have incredible focus (at times) The concept of "hyperfocus" as a symptom of ADHD is relatively recent idea. It didn't appear in any medical literature for a long time. The first appearance I could find was in some author's book about ADHD, which wasn't even targeted at medical professionals. It might be a symptom for some people, but misinterpreting it as a symptom of ADHD leaves the door…

> leave the diagnosis to professionals

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23821855

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#256

Post by all_blue_chucks » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

dukha wrote: post #56

I've always been depressive and pessimistic person as far as I can remember. I've been looking at other people only to see how happy they are and how content they with their life. They feel motivated, want something from life and in generally think that being alive is alright, which I just couldn't internalize no matter how hard I tried. Essentially, I've come to the conclusion that there _must_ be something wrong wi…

Your comment, "there's nothing wrong with my brain," doesn't clearly define what you mean by "wrong." From a biological standpoint, there is nothing wrong with misery. You can be miserable from birth to death, but as long as you pass on your genes your miserable self is "fit" from an evolutionary perspective.

Personally I would absolutely consider persistent misery, or experiencing extreme sadness over minor things, to be a clear proof that there is something wrong with my brain. Whether I treat that with therapy or medication, I think that is very much worth treating, and definitely not worth simply accepting.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#257

Post by spaetzleesser » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #28

Many depressed people are very resistant to accepting treatment. In a perfect world, people would have no hangups about scheduling an appointment with a therapist and/or trialing antidepressant medication as an adjunct to their recovery. However, in the real world many people are resistant to the idea of therapy and/or medication as it feels like admitting defeat. Or perhaps they've read cherry-picked horror stories…

When I had serious depression a while ago trying to find treatment was a seriously depressing experience. I went through several therapists which I didn’t click with and made me just feel worse. When you are already down it‘s very hard to do these attempts because they require a lot of effort and building of trust Every disappointment takes you down even further then . I know people who have had great success with treatment but I also know quite a few people who got more depressed trying to find therapy unsuccessfully.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#258

Post by jschwartzi » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

controversy wrote: post #239

cj wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology has definitely changed what it is to be human. But I don’t think that means what we are today is less human than before. Technology is a very powerful tool we created. But so was the “invention” of the wheel.

“To be human” is a soft phrase. What does that mean? It appears to assume an standard. The purpose of that appears to be to pull a no true Scotsman.

Just because something is soft it's not necessarily invalid. I would argue the phrase means that you experience certain emotional reactions when around other people. You are capable of putting yourself in the shoes of another person and relating to them. And you respond in kind with the emotional reactions of your friends and family members. And additionally I would add the requirement that you also consider how those other people would react to what you are about to do.

I know those aren't scientifically definable notions, but if I've learned anything in the past 10 years its that science isn't the only way to say interesting things about the human experience. It's just what most educated people reach for.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#259

Post by MR4D » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #250

MR4D wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that, and I disagree. I think the discussion about food should happen first. The food you eat affects your chemical balance, and therefore your ability to process information when you are making a decision or analyzing a situation by overloading your circuits. You can actually try this by eating a bunch of sugar and carbs for a few days, and then going without carbs or sugar for a few days. I guarantee your abi…

So... the science of diet isn't nearly as well understood as you're presenting. It's like "back pain" -- everyone tends to suffer in some way from it, so everyone relates to statements like yours and wants to believe in a simple resolution. But in practice, everyone suffers in different ways, and everyone responds differently to the same treatments. It's not really "a thing" in a medical sense. Like... that hyponatre…

You make some good points, and I don't argue with any of them (although, per your last point, I've found that eating something salty helps me from time to time :) ).

I guess my main issue is if we ignore diet as a cause, then we quickly get to medications, which can make the situation worse (not necessarily make the problem worse, but other problems can arise as a result).

I think that if psychiatrists were as well trained in food chemistry as they are in drug chemistry that the world would be a better place.

Finally, one personal anecdote - my business partner is really attuned to my moods. When I come into the office in a grouchy mood (of which I'm often not aware), he'll call it out. The first year or so it was off-putting, and somewhat annoying, but after I got into Keto, I noticed that my mood was changing as a result of the food I ate the day(s) before. Over time, our whole team has started to become attuned to it as well (yeah, it's kinda weird, and no, we are not all on keto - we tend to have fairly varied diets among us). The great result is that we call it out like, - "you're in a grouchy mood, what did you eat yesterday?", or "I'm not focused today" and the other person asks what they ate recently. This has been really effective for us, because most of the time it's the food affecting us, as opposed to us just being a jerk. Obviously other things weigh too, such as other stressors in life. but many little things we can trace back to food, and it has made our team much better at working together because we are freer at calling these sorts of things out.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#260

Post by closeparen » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

dpweb wrote: post #227

seesawtron wrote: post #106

It reminds me of what Aldous Huxley wrote (about people in distress): “The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are…

Also, what is the appropriate threshold where we call it mental illness. The article, Jenna's boyfriend cheated. She's seriously depressed. That ain't illness, it's normal. That doctor is a quack. I feel part of the problem is the expectation that humans are supposed to be happy. Happy is just a state of mind, not necessarily our default state. Depression and mental pain have their uses. They alert us, something is w…

Symptoms of depression are bad news for difficult self-improvement projects. Sometimes you need your emotional system to stop punching you in the face before you can climb out of the hole. Negative emotions can easily slip from encouraging action into preventing it. And without the capability to feel pleasure, even success will seem pretty empty.

Sometimes your life is actually great and the failure is in your perception. See the unreasonable effectiveness of applying basic rationality to your thinking, i.e. CBT.

Relief from depression is not happiness, it’s neutrality, the space to work, and the ability to feel the fruits of your work.