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Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

psyche.co

111–120 of 396 posts

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing. I've always been firmly grounded and positive person. And then a few years ago riding my bike down the road, I felt a immense wave of anxiety coming over me so intense that I felt like jumping off my bike and running away from myself. As an ex army special forces guy I found this particularly disturbing. And this was just the beginning. My situation continued in that general direction until I star…

What parasites are we talking about and what's a 6 day liver cleans ? (I mean, the procedure). Do you mean to say you had depression for a few months (with anxiety on top) ?

I had ups and downs after the first anxiety attack occurred but if normalized it was certainly a gradual decline into depression. Anxiety would come and go and although i never considered suicide I did wonder if I would be better of dead.

The liver flush I did involved a morning celery and lemon juice. 5 light meals. 1L of apple juice spread throughout the day. After dinner a glass of water with epsom salts (tastes like pool water but has epic muscle relaxing effects so amazing sleeps) and psylium husk. On day six involves some more epsom salts, then drinking half a glass of olive oil with lemon juice. There's more to it but you can find this protocol pretty easily. Its quite common to pass a lot of stones in stool the next day which is old bile that has been hardened after being purged from the liver. It's important to check you don't have gall stones before doing the liver flush. An ultrasound will tell.

In terms of parasites I cant say 100% but combantrin works on 4 main types (mostly parasitic worms) [1]. There's also liver flukes which seemed to be explain some symptoms.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrantel

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brains are not machines like your phone is a machine or your car is a machine. They are complex systems and the result of an emergent process rather than designed systems with discrete components. The analogy that brains are like machines is harmful because it makes it sound like there is some operating manual and simple cause effect relationships that are known. Our knowledge of the brain is in fact very little. It'…

> The analogy that brains are like machines is harmful because it makes it sound like there is some operating manual and simple cause effect relationships that are known. Why? We have complex machines and systems as well, where nobody would claim that there are only simple cause effect relationships and you only need a two-page owner's manual. Drugs work pretty reliably. While you can't predict what exactly is going…

In my view its a simple category error, though of a subtle kind. Machines are similar to biological systems in only the most superficial ways: they are non-static systems which exceed a certain complexity and they both follow the laws of physics (see footnote).

There are a lot of ways to think about the differences between machines and people. One very simple one is that machines typically function in only a very limited subset of the space of their available degrees of freedom and small deviations are usually catastrophic. Biological systems don't usually have this property.

Another way to think about it is that machines show evidence of design, which you might characterize as a certain economy of ideas. Two clocks in a computer a much more likely to be identical or to share major conceptual underpinnings than two clocks in a biological system, for example.

I used to have your view of things and then I read Deacon's "Incomplete Nature," a book whose thesis fails to land but is never the less a comprehensive analysis of the properties of living organisms in a unified if rickety system which encompasses the basic laws of physics. It really convinced me that the analogy between brain and machine is poor.

The question of what a mind is and how it relates to the brain is not settled science or philosophy, at any rate. It doesn't do anyone any good to pretend it is.

(footnote): This is a reasonable assumption to make but its hardly widely believed by the general public nor settled scientific fact. Luminaries like Penrose still assert a fundamental disjunction between what brains do and what machines do and he isn't alone among physicists, to say nothing of the broader philosophical community or the lumpen mass of human opinion.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Chemical imbalance' as a causal explanation seems to me almost useless because every severe change in behaviour pretty much by definition corresponds to change in the brain. How else is it supposed to be manifest? Is there supposed to be drastic change in psychology without change in the brain? There can be a company pouring lead into a river, psychological hazard during a civil war, and it will always manifest in t…

> How else is it supposed to be manifest? Is there supposed to be drastic change in psychology without change in the brain? There is an implication inherent to "chemical imbalance" that assumes a normative range. Modern medicine is universally based on normative ranges. If you are outside this range, it is considered a problem. Chemical imbalance is a generic and apt descriptor.

It might be a descriptor of a state but it does not explain the cause. The argument here is against the notion that depression is caused by chemical imbalance.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#114
post #73
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many neurological disorders are at least linked to gut bacteria, including autism and schizophrenia. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/05/gut-bacteria-may-con... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/balanced/201903/schi...

Initially I suspected carbon monoxide poisoning, because it correlated to when I’d come home. The symptoms were that bad. Turns out it was the dinner I was cooking every night for the family, I’d sit down to relax and eat and just a few minutes after eating asparagus feel completely bonkers. I went to the emergency room, they gave me a few Xanax; then the GP who wanted to prescribe me Lexapro and referred me to a Gas…

Have you been allergy tested? I found out last year (midway into my 30s) that I'm actually allergic to half the foods my mom used to prepare for me. Like tomatoes/nightshade fruits. I would always get itchy, confused and generally feel inflamed and terrible and my mom made me tons and tons of spaghetti as a kid. I had constant GI issues in school and did pretty poorly, bad memory, etc.

Prior to allergy testing I got really obsessed and into probiotics, lifehacking etc just to make myself feel better and I feel like nothing really helped my GI problems which always feel like they're sapping the energy out of my entire body. Turns out a huge portion of my problems were food allergies.

I haven't gone full FODMAPS but I eat much more keto/paleo nowadays when I can (I've been loose since quarantine) and feel so much better when I do. Meat and lettuce is my prime meal now.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The analogy that brains are like machines is harmful because it makes it sound like there is some operating manual and simple cause effect relationships that are known. Why? We have complex machines and systems as well, where nobody would claim that there are only simple cause effect relationships and you only need a two-page owner's manual. Drugs work pretty reliably. While you can't predict what exactly is going…

In my view its a simple category error, though of a subtle kind. Machines are similar to biological systems in only the most superficial ways: they are non-static systems which exceed a certain complexity and they both follow the laws of physics (see footnote). There are a lot of ways to think about the differences between machines and people. One very simple one is that machines typically function in only a very lim…

Another thing: to assert that biological systems are just machines is to subscribe to the same error which allows creationists or intelligent design people to put forward the argument that we ought to take the complexity of life as evidence of a designer. It conflates two totally different phenomena by observing a superficial similarity between the two and ignoring all of their manifold and salient differences.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Chemical imbalance' as a causal explanation seems to me almost useless because every severe change in behaviour pretty much by definition corresponds to change in the brain. How else is it supposed to be manifest? Is there supposed to be drastic change in psychology without change in the brain? There can be a company pouring lead into a river, psychological hazard during a civil war, and it will always manifest in t…

"People in distress" is even more useless. "in distress" could mean anything from having fallen down the stairs, to running out of gas on the highway. I don't mind changing language, as long as we're become more precise, not less. If "chemical imbalance" is bad, suggest something better. I think a bigger problem is that people are fixated on word definitions and offending others instead of solving problems.

>I think a bigger problem is that people are fixated on word definitions and offending others instead of solving problems.

I agree, and this is pretty much unavoidable when the current clinical term is vague enough to be used as a generic insult.

The general pattern I see

1. A vague term is used to describe symptoms of an issue we have a poor understanding of.

2. That term becomes associated with the symptoms, but is vague enough to be used as a generic insult (ex: playground school children yelling it at each other)

3. That term develops a stigma as an insult, and becomes more and more controversial

4. That term is replaced with a new term, rinse and repeat.

We've seen this before ex: Moron, Imbecile, and Retard all once had vague clinical meanings.

Then we went to mentally challenged, special needs, etc. Now even those are fairly loaded terms.

In all of these cases, the word/phrase describes something that people would rather not have or be, but it does it without clarity.

It will develop a stigma.

I find the folks who constantly advocate for changing these names well-intentioned, but basically a waste of time.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you have a broken leg, everyone notices and can relate; when you have a broken mind, no one can see it, and so no one can feel sympathy, let alone empathy. This hits home and almost moved me to tears. I went through a trauma about 3 years ago, I was Kidnapped/abducted from a gas station at gun point and was forced to drive my attacker for nearly 30 minutes at gun point under threat of death before opening the…

I'm very sorry to hear about your ordeal, it sounds absolutely horrible. However, it's surprising to me that a commercial outlet in the US is basically responsible for keeping the bandits away. In my country I really doubt such thing claim have any chance in country, as public security is seen as a role of the police. I'm not 100% sure on the law, but I believe that, here in Poland, the security guards are there to p…

> as public security is seen as a role of the police

In the US police have no duty to prevent crime, also the gas station is private property not public and police are not considered public security. In short just like slip and fall cases in The US, businesses owe a duty to invitees to remove foreseeable dangers such as a slippery surface (in the case of a slip and fall) or a suspicious person loitering on premises for 2 hours. They also owed a duty to preserve the video evidence but they destroyed that as well.

I have a hard time believing in Poland a business might allow a rapist to just hang out on the property and identify potential victims all while a security guard is standing by that does nothing. That said laws wildly vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#118

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

As a counter point, I was on prozac (fluoxetine) for about a year after being diagnosed with major depression. Everything seemed better at first, but my personality changed in a way that, when I looked at it objectively, I did not like and eventually I felt as though the drug was merely masking depression that never actually went away.

My personal opinion having talked to doctors, therapists, and other depression sufferers is that the medical industry's treatment of depression is basically just throwing darts and hoping. They only kinda have a rough idea of how to treat some of the symptoms of depression and care not for any potential underlying causes. The "chemical imbalance" language, in my considered opinion, really does enforce this world view that depression is something you just throw drugs at until you're fixed, and I don't think that's helpful.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Chemical imbalance' as a causal explanation seems to me almost useless because every severe change in behaviour pretty much by definition corresponds to change in the brain. How else is it supposed to be manifest? Is there supposed to be drastic change in psychology without change in the brain? There can be a company pouring lead into a river, psychological hazard during a civil war, and it will always manifest in t…

> How else is it supposed to be manifest? Is there supposed to be drastic change in psychology without change in the brain? There is an implication inherent to "chemical imbalance" that assumes a normative range. Modern medicine is universally based on normative ranges. If you are outside this range, it is considered a problem. Chemical imbalance is a generic and apt descriptor.

I don't think it is though. For example, one of the things we know is that IBS can cause depression/anxiety (or perhaps more accurately, people with IBS are more likely to have depression/anxiety).

In this case chemical imbalance would be objectively wrong. Their brain is being affected by another part of the body entirely, but you would have doctors selectively treating the symptoms (the 'chemical imbalance') rather than the cause.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#120
I've written several comments about this topic on HN before, but here goes again.

I've had a lot of mild/moderate anxiety and depression since early in life, and whilst it's never been severe enough for me to be at risk of doing harm to myself or others, it has been a major complication in achieving good outcomes (i.e., always showed some promise and early success at intellectual, sporting and social pursuits, but could never hold it together enough emotionally to get sustained results.)

At times of particular seriousness, medication provided some relief; mostly SSRIs (sertraline/Zoloft), which I've taken in low doses for a total of about 3 years, and occasional valium for acute anxiety. But whilst these medicines made life more bearable, they never made life feel "normal" or felt like any kind of complete solution.

Part of the issue I guess was that I had a really strong feeling that what I was experiencing wasn't a biological malfunction or predetermined trait. I guess I knew that from the fact that I'd been able to do quite well at things, and feel quite happy, at least some of the time, throughout my life. It didn't make sense that I'd be biologically programmed to be well-functioning some of the time, but not at others.

After a long search I discovered deep subconscious emotional healing techniques, that enabled me to connect with the programmed reactions and beliefs that I'd picked up from some unpleasant early life experiences, that had snowballed as I progressed through life.

I've been undertaking various forms of these kinds of practices for about 8 years now, and bit by bit the anxiety and depression has dissipated, and my life outcomes (career/finances, friendships/relationships and physiological health) have steadily improved and are now doing so at an accelerating rate (though of course there are still ups and downs, with or without macro events like pandemics).

As I look around at all the unrest and widespread mental "illness" in the world, I can easily see links to the distress that so many people feel for all kinds of different specific reasons, but that often boil down to similar patterns: difficulties in childhood (feeling unsafe/unloved/undernourished at home), leading to difficulties getting good social and/or academic outcomes in school, leading to difficulties as people progress into adulthood and try to establish careers, social networks and romantic relationships in a world that can be very hostile to people who don't tick certain boxes.

I'm now quite convinced that the mainstream psychopharmacology industry is a failing effort to paper over the gaping hole in modern society's ability to provide people with the nurturing, confidence and agency needed to build satisfying lives.

From my own experience I'm sure things can be much better, but it will take a major rethink about much of the way we go about supporting people on their life journeys.

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