Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress • Hacker News Board

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#51

Post by johnchristopher » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

thelittleone wrote: post #41

sillysaurusx wrote: post #13

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

Thanks for sharing. I've always been firmly grounded and positive person. And then a few years ago riding my bike down the road, I felt a immense wave of anxiety coming over me so intense that I felt like jumping off my bike and running away from myself. As an ex army special forces guy I found this particularly disturbing. And this was just the beginning. My situation continued in that general direction until I star…

What parasites are we talking about and what's a 6 day liver cleans ? (I mean, the procedure).

Do you mean to say you had depression for a few months (with anxiety on top) ?

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#52

Post by andreilys » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:40 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #13

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused.

The realization that thoughts think themselves was one of the most profound moments of my life.

Identification with your thoughts is a recipe for unhappiness.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#53

Post by realharo » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:40 PM UTC

partyboat1586 wrote: post #36

realharo wrote: post #5

>She told me she welcomed the diagnosis of a neurobiological disorder, which confirmed her problem was ‘real’ – brought on by a physiological force external to her volition – and that it showed she’s not ‘just a slacker’. That is such an arbitrary distinction. As if being "just a slacker" doesn't have a number of deeper reasons behind it as well. Brains are just machines at the end of the day, every behavior is a res…

Brains are not machines like your phone is a machine or your car is a machine. They are complex systems and the result of an emergent process rather than designed systems with discrete components. The analogy that brains are like machines is harmful because it makes it sound like there is some operating manual and simple cause effect relationships that are known. Our knowledge of the brain is in fact very little. It'…

I don't think calling it a machine is implying that we understand how it works internally (to a much greater extent than we actually do). Or even that we fully understand how it tends to behave in practice, out there in the "real world", as part of larger systems. But I guess if many people view it that way, then using slightly different language might be better.

What I was getting at is the fact that there is no fundamental difference between "I did it" and "my illness caused me to do it" (other than maybe probability).

Or in other words, no "free will", in the way that some people view that term.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#54

Post by opportune » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:41 PM UTC

I completely agree with the fact that the “chemical imbalance” idea is a gross simplification, but it also makes a lot of sense why psychiatrists would be prone to this type of mindset. When all you have is medication with relatively well defined effects on neurotransmitters(mostly GABA, serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine) everything looks like a problem of getting those in the right ratio.

Personally having experienced depression myself and knowing many others who have experienced it, I’m of the opinion that a lot of mental issues are either symptoms of some other condition (like diarrhea or coughing) or the result of learned behavior / maladaptive coping mechanisms. Or simply us treating emotional states or personalities that aren’t socially acceptable as illnesses (of course this doesn’t include things like psychosis, nor is it meant to diminish how serious depression and anxiety can be). That’s a bit uncomfortable for the existing mental health complex though

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#55

Post by donatj » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:41 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #13

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

My wife just started Prozac after years on other medications, and has had a similar “miracle”. Her mood has been the stablest of the last 10 years I’ve known her. It’s been life changing for her and thus myself, as selfish as that feels. Anyway just really glad to hear another’s similar story.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#56

Post by dukha » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:41 PM UTC

I've always been depressive and pessimistic person as far as I can remember.

I've been looking at other people only to see how happy they are and how content they with their life. They feel motivated, want something from life and in generally think that being alive is alright, which I just couldn't internalize no matter how hard I tried.

Essentially, I've come to the conclusion that there _must_ be something wrong with my neurotransmitters that I just can't be happy as fellow friends around me.

Many doctor appointments, many different prescriptions.

Antidepressants did their job and I started to care less about what's going on, but they didn't make me any happier. They just made me less miserable. On the other side, I've started to see the world through some kind of fog, which blocked most of my previous perception. My long-term memory started to degradate.

Now, after many years of taking various SSRIs I'm beginning to realize, that there's nothing wrong with my brain.

That's perhaps who I am, maybe either percepting more than many people around or just more sensetive and therefore reacting stronger even on slightest stimulus in a much stronger ways. I have opinions and thougts on a topics that many do not even care about.

So instead of supressing thoughts and emotions I must accept them as they are.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#57

Post by tcj_phx » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:41 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #13

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

One of the ways that Prozac helps people is by increasing allopregnanolone in the brain [1]. This is a well-known effect of Prozac, and perhaps the other SSRI's. Allopregnanolone "is a neurosteroid and acts as a positive allosteric modulator of the GABA-A receptor, the major biological target of the inhibitory neurotransmitter γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA)" [0]. GABA -> relaxation [2]. GABA supplements don't work very well on account of the blood brain barrier...

An evil pharma company recently got their version of allopregnanolone approved to treat postpartum depression. Cost of treatment: $34,000. It's cheaper to go upstream: progesterone, pregnenolone, or figure out why the body is having trouble making pregnenolone from cholesterol... Vitamin A? Thyroid?

One theory of why women experience postpartum depression is that their progesterone levels "fall off a cliff" after they give birth. In theory supplementing progesterone would help postpartum depression better than allopregnanolone. No one can afford to do that study because there'd be no pay off, as all the important patents have expired.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopregnanolone

[1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=allopregnanolone+fluoxe...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Aminobutyric_acid

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#58

Post by PragmaticPulp » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

chrisandchips wrote: post #45

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #28

Many depressed people are very resistant to accepting treatment. In a perfect world, people would have no hangups about scheduling an appointment with a therapist and/or trialing antidepressant medication as an adjunct to their recovery. However, in the real world many people are resistant to the idea of therapy and/or medication as it feels like admitting defeat. Or perhaps they've read cherry-picked horror stories…

> However, in the real world many people are resistant to the idea of therapy and/or medication as it feels like admitting defeat. Or perhaps they've read cherry-picked horror stories of bad therapists or medication side effects on the internet. This is hugely compounded by the fact that even when people do decide to go for treatment like therapy, they discover that its painfully inaccessible. As in, if you don't hav…

Often true, but it's also true that many people don't realize how affordable therapy can be under their insurance plans. YMMV, obviously.

Depression is notorious for making people assume the worst. Many depressed people will assume therapy is inaccessible or too costly without even checking. I would encourage everyone to at least take a few minutes to look it up or call their insurance.

For example, I've walked several people through the process of finding a therapist, checking with their insurance, and scheduling appointments to get them started in the past few years (United States, corporate insurance). For most of them, therapy visits were billed with a $20 copay with a limit of 24 visits per year, which is more than accessible.

However, even if it's not, it's important to put the costs in perspective. How much would you pay for a magic pill that improved your problems? Does $1000/year sound worth it? That's 10 x $100 therapy sessions.

If professional therapy is out of reach, self-directed CBT using books or self-help resources have been shown to be effective as well. Not as fast or effective as professionally-guided therapy, but certainly a worthwhile starting point.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#59

Post by wincy » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

thelittleone wrote: post #41

sillysaurusx wrote: post #13

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

Thanks for sharing. I've always been firmly grounded and positive person. And then a few years ago riding my bike down the road, I felt a immense wave of anxiety coming over me so intense that I felt like jumping off my bike and running away from myself. As an ex army special forces guy I found this particularly disturbing. And this was just the beginning. My situation continued in that general direction until I star…

Wow, this is a very interesting story. Another person might have just resigned themselves to their angst-ridden fate, and never gone beyond psych meds. It seems like generalist doctors (I’m sure lot all!) think, or at least act, as if there’s no link or causal relationship between mind and body. I did a three day fast which reduced my anxiety symptoms immensely for months, glad you sorted this out.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#60

Post by hoorayimhelping » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #52

sillysaurusx wrote: post #13

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. The realization that thoughts think themselves was one of the most profound moments of my life. Identification with your thoughts is a recipe for unhappiness.

You don't have to listen to everything your brain tells you