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Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

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Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#171

Post by kemayo »

xxpor wrote: post #140
thoraway1010 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it is very user friendly. Try to cancel your newspaper subscription - you have to call in and jump through hoops. Try to cancel your cable or internet, you didn't realize the rate you got was a "promo" rate that required a two year contract? I guarantee that if apple used the approaches others use, subscription revenue would be a LOT higher. They send you an email saying, here's what will be renewing soon, cli…

Try to cancel an apple sub after moving to android.

It's pretty easy, so long as you're either using a Mac or are on Windows and able to install iTunes. The subscription-billing-reminder email includes a "review your subscription" link, which opens up Music / iTunes to the relevant buried section.

Really, I feel it should be available through icloud.com, but I couldn't find it anywhere. That'd avoid any of these issues where you need access to a non-phone device.

...vaguely possible that you could get to it through the Apple Music app on Android. I can't easily check that from where I am now, though.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#172

Post by syshum »

thoraway1010 wrote: post #122
black_puppydog wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* consistently user hostile

Except it is very user friendly. Try to cancel your newspaper subscription - you have to call in and jump through hoops. Try to cancel your cable or internet, you didn't realize the rate you got was a "promo" rate that required a two year contract? I guarantee that if apple used the approaches others use, subscription revenue would be a LOT higher. They send you an email saying, here's what will be renewing soon, cli…

This is like saying China is a free nation because NK has worse authoritarianism

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#173

Post by threeseed »

yyyk wrote: post #91
iandanforth wrote: post #11

The comments here read like people with Stockholm syndrome.

What is unique to some Apple fans, that it's not enough for to merely deny bugs and criticism, they also often personally attack the messenger. Other companies have bugs which they promise to fix someday; Apple doesn't have any bugs or problematic behaviour and it's your fault if you have any issues. There isn't a thread on HN about Apple without this behaviour. Either this is an unofficial Apple PR guideline or a sy…

Classic strawman argument.

Can you provide examples of these people who are saying Apple products don't have bugs or problematic behaviour ?

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#174

Post by baddox »

nottorp wrote: post #168
baddox wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, the billing is opt-in at the beginning of the trial period, and Apple (in my experience and opinion) is very clear about that. You even have to do a FaceID payment authorization at the beginning of the trial.

Why should it be opt in at the beginning of the trial period instead of at the end ?

Because Apple doesn’t want free trials to be “bait” to convince you to pay later. The idea is that you authorize payment and start your subscription at the very beginning, whether or not there is a free trial. With any subscription, you can always cancel at any time (but you won’t get any of your money back, of course). The free trial period works the exact same way.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#175

Post by bluesign »

gizmo wrote: post #31
bluesign wrote: post #13

To be honest this rule is for a reason. Onboarding people without price, then telling them about price certainly will increase your retention, but not the best case from consumer side. From twitter they say: “ We've experimented with auto-charging trials in the past and they lead to (1) fewer users trying the product (2) a huge number of refund requests by users who forget to cancel and (3) complete disbelief from th…

If the issue is that app developers are not upfront about pricing then the solution is to tell app developers to be more upfront about pricing.

how they will manage? they will check every day your app behaving correctly?

or is it easier to force trials to be on apple subscriptions, and don't have any problem.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#176

Post by Frost1x »

baddox wrote: post #166
Frost1x wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the case I was describing. By intend to cancel, I mean during the free trial period. However, how is a "subscription you intend to cancel" case different from a "free trial you decided you didn't like and forgot to cancel" case, as far as paid subscription management? For example, CBS All Access had a free trial a few months back which had Picard on it. The monthly fee was nominal and it looked like they h…

I guess the idea is that you are supposed to cancel when you decide you want to cancel, rather than trying to be clever and use your entire free trial and then cancel at the last minute.

Who says you're trying to be clever? Perhaps you're just busy and have other things to consider?

I know I got wrapped up with a few project deadlines for a few weeks and didn't even have time continue exploring shows before canceling. I'd completely forgotten I even had the service. I guess I wasn't being clever enough.

It appears more to me like opt-out recurring subscription is actually the model trying to be clever. These practices are largely business friendly, not consumer friendly.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#177

Post by Semaphor »

thoraway1010 wrote: post #122
black_puppydog wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* consistently user hostile

Except it is very user friendly. Try to cancel your newspaper subscription - you have to call in and jump through hoops. Try to cancel your cable or internet, you didn't realize the rate you got was a "promo" rate that required a two year contract? I guarantee that if apple used the approaches others use, subscription revenue would be a LOT higher. They send you an email saying, here's what will be renewing soon, cli…

Okay, so what I’m reading is that in defense of apple not allowing a company to be user-friendly, you list companies that are even worse and use that as justification for apple to force developer to be somewhat user-unfriendly instead of fully. I honestly don’t even know what to say to that.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#178

Post by baddox »

Frost1x wrote: post #176
baddox wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the idea is that you are supposed to cancel when you decide you want to cancel, rather than trying to be clever and use your entire free trial and then cancel at the last minute.

Who says you're trying to be clever? Perhaps you're just busy and have other things to consider? I know I got wrapped up with a few project deadlines for a few weeks and didn't even have time continue exploring shows before canceling. I'd completely forgotten I even had the service. I guess I wasn't being clever enough. It appears more to me like opt-out recurring subscription is actually the model trying to be cleve…

Being too busy to cancel a subscription is a problem that would apply equally to normal subscriptions that start charging you immediately. The only alternative to that would be no recurring automatic payments at all, which is to say, no subscriptions at all.

There’s nothing unique about a free trial period in that situation.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#179

Post by zaroth »

catalogia wrote: post #147
zaroth wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, instead of insinuating that people are shilling, perhaps supporters of this policy have valid and honest reasons for their opinions. It is akin to the Golden Rule on HN that we must actually presume that.

> shill: A person paid to endorse a product favourably, while pretending to be impartial. > insinuation: That which is insinuated; a hint; a suggestion, innuendo or intimation by distant allusion "Brand affiliation tribalism" is not an 'insinuation of shilling' as I understand those terms. It's a plainly stated description of 'fanboyism.' Per the golden rule and principle of charitable assumptions, should I assume it…

Hi catalogia,

My apologies. It was definitely not my intention of mischaracterizing your above comment.

I didn't think a shill necessarily had to be paid. My working definition was more along the lines of;

"an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler [e.g. Apple] who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others."

Brand affiliation tribalism seems to me closely aligned with that definition. An accomplice acting as an enthusiastic customer. Therefore I read your comment as demeaning the honest support of Apple's policy here as insincere, i.e. shilling. It sounds like you believe that those supportive of Apple's policy are merely disillusioned [fanboys], but not insincere.

But let's not make it about us personally, and again I apologize for taking the first misstep in that direction.

I don't think it's fair to characterize support of Apple's policy here as shilling, or brand affiliation tribalism, or fanboyism.

I think there are valid technical and usability reasons for demanding that all products within a store all conform to the same billing policies. For Apple, providing a consistent user experience is absolutely paramount. They want all apps to act the same and bill the same. If the baseline/standard experience is sub-optimal, then they would say let us fix or improve the baseline experience for everyone, not deal with it piecemeal and leave the user guessing how an app will end up billing them.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#180

Post by valuearb »

hundchenkatze wrote: post #131
valuearb wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is the highest valued company in the world because it leads its industry in customer satisfaction. There are things to criticize Apple and the App Store over but trying to reduce subscription scams by making subscription terms consistent doesn’t seem like one of them. Why are you taking the word of a butthurt yogi instead of hearing Apple's side of the story?

But can you not see that auto-billing without reconfirming that the user actually wants to continue the subscription is also scammy? Why are you taking the side of a trillion dollar company that clearly knows how to extract money from users.

What is Apples reasoning for this requirement?
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