Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#141

Post by klyrs » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

saurik wrote: post #70

kemayo wrote: post #9

Apple's approach isn't as bad as this title makes it sound. Mostly because they're aggressive communicators about subscription billing -- they send emails well in advance of any subscription renewal, telling you when you'll be billed, how much for, and giving you a link to cancel the subscription. Makes me feel this isn't them hoping you'll just forget and be billed. In fact, I'd suspect this is intended as a user-fr…

I guess that works if you actually check your email :/. (edit: People are downvoting this heavily, but this is 2020 so I would expect stuff like "your free trial is ending" to come in the form of organized push notifications from the App Store. I even like email, but have essentially been trained to not bother with it as no one else is using it either... we are even now exclusively on messaging apps at work ;P.)

Not to mention, these emails might end up in your spam folder

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#142

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #99

radley wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is forcing a yoga app to do opt-out billing instead of opt-in. That's anti-user-friendly.

After watching my mother confusedly agree to $7/week billing in an app she downloaded to play with her cat, I'm not convinced Apple is in the business of helping users make optimal billing decisions with clarity. The least the App Store could do is give notifications (not just email) for monthly billing and notifications for "You are now paying $7/week and will be charged " (Click to go to a screen that will let you…

[deleted]

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#143

Post by m3kw9 » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 6:19 PM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #87

vulcan01 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that there is a grace period for billing: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/09/12/apple-app-store-subscri...

Nobody has answered the question yet. Since you can't be guaranteed to be able to bill someone forever, an expired CC being an obvious example, how does an app not break the rule of "Because Apple forbids an app to be disabled or not function". I mean, the app surely doesn't uninstall itself or give you free access forever.

This is an edge case, so Apple may just pop up an error and actually allow that as that is not the developers fault

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#144

Post by elliekelly » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

warp wrote: post #20

rgovostes wrote: post #16

Is it really that they are forcing them to implement auto-billing, or that they are forcing the trial to go through standard App Store mechanisms? Is it anti-consumer to make all subscriptions behave the same? Suppose half of apps managed their own trial period and half of them used auto-renewing App Store trials. Also worth noting it is really, really trivial to cancel an app subscription from within your Settings,…

> Also worth noting it is really, really trivial to cancel an app subscription from within your Settings, and to see much of the trial period is remaining. I think for most people it's pretty hard to find. It's not actually in Settings. You have to open the App Store, click your face, and that screen has a "Subscriptions >" menu item. I don't subscribe/purchase that much stuff on iOS, so it always takes me a while to…

I wish iOS would add subscription management to the Wallet app instead of tucking it away in three or four different places.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#145

Post by ardy42 » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #9

Apple's approach isn't as bad as this title makes it sound. Mostly because they're aggressive communicators about subscription billing -- they send emails well in advance of any subscription renewal, telling you when you'll be billed, how much for, and giving you a link to cancel the subscription. Makes me feel this isn't them hoping you'll just forget and be billed. In fact, I'd suspect this is intended as a user-fr…

> In fact, I'd suspect this is intended as a user-friendly feature. It means you had to be presented with the cost up-front before you began the trial, avoiding letting shadier developers do a bait and switch when the trial expires and the user needs to sign up again. (Not saying there aren't other ways this could be done, but...)

Doesn't Apple take a cut of app subscription revenue? So could requiring auto-renewal just be a way of increasing profits, while deflecting the negative PR for the subscription dark pattern onto individual app developers?

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#146

Post by baddox » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #145

kemayo wrote: post #9

Apple's approach isn't as bad as this title makes it sound. Mostly because they're aggressive communicators about subscription billing -- they send emails well in advance of any subscription renewal, telling you when you'll be billed, how much for, and giving you a link to cancel the subscription. Makes me feel this isn't them hoping you'll just forget and be billed. In fact, I'd suspect this is intended as a user-fr…

> In fact, I'd suspect this is intended as a user-friendly feature. It means you had to be presented with the cost up-front before you began the trial, avoiding letting shadier developers do a bait and switch when the trial expires and the user needs to sign up again. (Not saying there aren't other ways this could be done, but...) Doesn't Apple take a cut of app subscription revenue? So could requiring auto-renewal j…

It could be, but that doesn't fit with the aggressive billing cycle notifications that Apple does which it certainly could choose to not do.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#147

Post by catalogia » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #78

catalogia wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brand affiliation tribalism is rampant in modern society.

Or, instead of insinuating that people are shilling, perhaps supporters of this policy have valid and honest reasons for their opinions. It is akin to the Golden Rule on HN that we must actually presume that.

> shill: A person paid to endorse a product favourably, while pretending to be impartial.

> insinuation: That which is insinuated; a hint; a suggestion, innuendo or intimation by distant allusion

"Brand affiliation tribalism" is not an 'insinuation of shilling' as I understand those terms. It's a plainly stated description of 'fanboyism.'

Per the golden rule and principle of charitable assumptions, should I assume it wasn't your intent to mischaracterize my above comment? Should I expect an apology for this presumed misunderstanding? Try as I might, I can't bring myself to believe I'll get one.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#148

Post by BilalBudhani » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

I think comments saying "Apple is doing this to provide a better experience" completely misses the point. If I'm creating an app (like a business) I should be incharge of deciding when I would like to charge my customers because I understand my target audience better than Apple at least.

Apple is not just dictating how customers will pay but when they should be charged which is ridiculous.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#149

Post by baddox » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

radley wrote: post #96

kemayo wrote: post #9

Apple's approach isn't as bad as this title makes it sound. Mostly because they're aggressive communicators about subscription billing -- they send emails well in advance of any subscription renewal, telling you when you'll be billed, how much for, and giving you a link to cancel the subscription. Makes me feel this isn't them hoping you'll just forget and be billed. In fact, I'd suspect this is intended as a user-fr…

Apple is forcing a yoga app to do opt-out billing instead of opt-in. That's anti-user-friendly.

Well, no, the billing is opt-in at the beginning of the trial period, and Apple (in my experience and opinion) is very clear about that. You even have to do a FaceID payment authorization at the beginning of the trial.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#150

Post by baddox » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

Frost1x wrote: post #49

bluesign wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cause the consumer thinks app is free or one time purchase, they may even not say anything about payment, till your trial is over. And you invested your time on a training, later surprised by the cost, but as you were invested timewise, you are more likely to pay.

I wonder which you're more likely to pay for: a subscription you intend to cancel or having something free shift to an expense? From my experience, even with due diligence and setting up calendar event notifications, I've missed a few subscription cancelations I intended. On the other hand, whenever I use something free, I always proceed under the assumption it can shift to a pay for service/product at some point in…

I don't think Apple is intending to cover the "subscription you intend to cancel" case. When you start a free trial for a paid subscription in an iPhone app, you have to do a normal payment authorization which looks almost exactly the same as an instant payment authorization. If you have no intention of paying for a subscription and you don't think you can remember to cancel the subscription before the free trial ends, I think it's pretty reasonable to just not make the upfront payment authorization and thus not use the free trial.