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China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

bbc.com

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Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#141

Post by spyckie2 »

yorwba wrote: post #140
spyckie2 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a theory (known as rice culture theory) that states that rice farming requires cooperation from your neighbors to farm successfully, which solidified a culture of collective values. Wheat, the Western staple, has no such requirements. If you depended on your neighbor's cooperation, the ideals of Confucianism help the village survive. If your neighbors were like the Americans who refuse to put on a mask, your…

Confucius was born in what is now Shandong province, which is far enough north to be not very suitable for rice production. The most important crop is wheat . The southern provinces where rice is more common weren't even part of the Chinese cultural sphere at the time. The theory doesn't explain anything, since it doesn't even get the agricultural facts right.

sorry if I explained it poorly. Here's an article about it.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/05/08/310477497/ri...

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#142

Post by koheripbal »

archibaldJ wrote: post #38

As someone who lives inside China I just hope this will encourage more direct and indirect confrontations with the system that defines the current central government i.e. among the intellects and influentials in China, now that a pillar of the freedom of Chinese expression is on its way to unnatural erosion under the paradigm introduced by this new law unto Hong Kong, that of which used to be where grey areas of Chin…

What is the incentive for someone to "confront" the system in China? It means imprisonment, career destruction, the destruction of their family's wealth and well-being, and possibly death.

The way to change a belligerent governmental system isn't through direct confrontation unless you can literally mobilize a majority of the population - it is by changing it from within. Become part of the system, spread an ideology, and change it where you can.

The protest mentality in Hong Kong just provided optical cover for Beijing to accelerate their plans to implement centralized governance.

The peaceful protests had some positive impact, but directly confronting the Chinese government through violent protests in Hong Kong made things worse, not better.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#143

Post by koheripbal »

est wrote: post #48
chrischen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically exactly what happened with the last presidential election. The pro-China (conservative) party was heavily favored to win and then suddenly the Hong Kong protests ignited and reminded Taiwanese about China and the pro-USA party (liberals) ended up winning in a landslide.

> The pro-China (conservative) party was heavily favored to win Contrary to popular belief, mainland Chinese often hate the pro-Beijing party. Because all they want is more economical gain, rather than political unification. Some radicals even advocate Tsai's presidency and urge her to declare independence so PLA could have a Casus Belli to invade.

This exactly - and one of Xi's main goals is to take back Taiwan this century.

This will likely include some degree of subterfuge exactly like this - and will probably happen when the US is distracted by divisive internal conflict.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#144

Post by hyperman1 »

baybal2 wrote: post #126
hyperman1 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently learned some about the Chinese vision: China aspires to long-term stability first. China had in its past times where the country's internal organization broke down, resulting in famine, ... Lots of people died. As a result, Confucianism has risen: A vision where individual freedom is seen as a danger to that internal organization. Hence, it should be tempered by strict loyalty to the family, with the whole…

When I see Americans talking about confucianism, I want to laught. You got it all wrong. What you say makes no sense to a Chinese not in its literal, or proverbial sense, and talk like these usually get grannies pointing finger to foreigners on the bus, quietly giggling "oh, those foreigners thinking something on China again..."

OK fair enough. I am no American, BTW, and every culture talking about every other culture has this problem, in both ways.

Now I do see a fairly negative response here, without anything to replace it. So make us all on hacker news one of the lucky 10 000 today: What does China aspire to? What are the overarching themes in the Chinese view of the world, and how do they differ from the Western ones?

I recently learned some about the Chinese vision. If it's wrong, I'd like to learn something more.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#145

Post by baybal2 »

andor wrote: post #134
baybal2 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I see Americans talking about confucianism, I want to laught. You got it all wrong. What you say makes no sense to a Chinese not in its literal, or proverbial sense, and talk like these usually get grannies pointing finger to foreigners on the bus, quietly giggling "oh, those foreigners thinking something on China again..."

Can you give a better explanation?

> Can you give a better explanation?

1. 99% regular Chinese citizens can't give more .... about what some ancient philosopher wrote. They have more important things to care, like earning a living. It is like telling that most Americans are... Aristotelians because few of them were of Greek extraction (even when their descendants today cannot say a word in Greek...)

2. Chinese culture was not formed by ancient dictums. The culture of China was razed with fire in seventies, and rebuilt from blank sheet. The level of "culture" of a regular citizen was reduced to just being able to read, and write, and even that was not a given.

And even before the revolution, Chinese culture people knew had zero things in common to what these people think. The man would be laughed out not only by grannies on the bus today, but equally so a century ago.

3. If there is any cultural imprint on China at all, it would be Russia. Chinese north of Shanghai are effectively indistinguishable by what is in their head from most Russians, other than them speaking Chinese.

Only a more rural, impassable, and much less well off Southern China managed to preserve few vestiges of what China was before the revolution.

To most Chinese citizens, a travel to HK, or Taiwan is a giant cultural shock. It is because them suddenly realising themselves being so much less Chinese than they though they were.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#146

Post by koheripbal »

ztratar wrote: post #55
vincvinc wrote: post #41

I know this is not on many people's radar right now, but I strongly believe the rise of Xi's authoritarian nationalism is the biggest story of this century (after global warming). And this is our generation's "Berlin wall moment". By itself, you might look at this law (after it's published) and not see anything bad. But in the greater context of Chinese policy choices of the last few years, this is nothing less than…

Not sure why this is downvoted, so plz have an upvote!

Chinese Nationalism is incredibly strong. Many people of Chinese ethnicity take great personal pride in the rise of China as a new global super power.

Imagine if you were Italian, Spanish, or Greek, and a new Roman Empire was emerging.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#147

Post by the_dune_13 »

baybal2 wrote: post #104
tanilama wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia and China aspire to nothing. Not really. Russia and China aspires to protect their perceived sovereignty. That is probably the most fundamental political ideal. Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'. Last but not least, in a post-COVID world, I can't really say that US is even better for your physical well-being among the choices.

I think, you need to read some history books... preferably Chinese, or Russian. For most people from the West, the political thinking of people in power here is almost martian. Both Russia, and China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation, and the occupation it was very savage, and brutal. How do you reconcile your imperial ambitions with understanding that your global superpower polity began its…

"Both Russia, and China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation" What's the Russian's big chunk? "having to server as a tributary, or vassal lord to some Hun/Mongol/Tatar/Manchu khan on your own home soil?" Didn't Grand Duchy of Muscovy predecessors come to existence thanks to alliance with Golden Horde?

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#148

Post by ric2b »

baybal2 wrote: post #89
fiblye wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?

> This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something? As a person who spend near half of my life in both of them, I don't see the statement being far from reality. Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades. I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a lo…

> Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades.

> I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves.

I could say the same about the US.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#149

Post by ric2b »

obiye27 wrote: post #109
freeone3000 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's immigration stats for Russia: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/RUS/russia/immigration... . Of course millions are clamoring to immigrate to Russia for a better life - it's a rich, stable country!

So stable it has multiple ongoing civil conflicts. Come visit Russia, we didn’t shoot down any airliners this year!

> So stable it has multiple ongoing civil conflicts.

Can you mention one?

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#150

Post by baylearn »

baylearn wrote: post #79
vincvinc wrote: post #41

I know this is not on many people's radar right now, but I strongly believe the rise of Xi's authoritarian nationalism is the biggest story of this century (after global warming). And this is our generation's "Berlin wall moment". By itself, you might look at this law (after it's published) and not see anything bad. But in the greater context of Chinese policy choices of the last few years, this is nothing less than…

Upvoted.

Lol, someone downvoted my "Upvoted." comment.
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