China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#131

Post by simonh » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 8:55 AM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #58

obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

Russia takes care of Russia, China takes care of China, and well, US takes care of US, but acts as if they take care of the world. US foreign policy is meant to improve US. If you don't agree, please give me an example where they wanted to "spread democracy" without any personal gain. And I'm perfectly fine here in EU thank you very much.

You can look at it that way sure. The USA benefits from global stability and trade, but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

In contrast, how many countries have that sort of relationship with Russia or China? You could argue Syria has benefited from Russian patronage, but in reality Russia doesn't care at all about Syria, only it's base in Tartus. China has no regional allies whatsoever.

The key difference is that the USA has a reputation to protect. It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it weakens it's relationships with all it's other partners.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#132

Post by fuoqi » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 8:56 AM UTC

obiye27 wrote: post #109

freeone3000 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's immigration stats for Russia: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/RUS/russia/immigration... . Of course millions are clamoring to immigrate to Russia for a better life - it's a rich, stable country!

So stable it has multiple ongoing civil conflicts. Come visit Russia, we didn’t shoot down any airliners this year!

Last civil conflict in Russia was the second Chechen war.

By all definitions it's Ukraine in the state of civil war, not Russia. More than 90% of Donbas rebels are Ukrainian citizens. Russia of course supports the pro-Russian side in this conflict, but foreign interference during civil wars is so common, you could call it a rule.

And even outside the war zone you can see a strong polarization in Ukrainian society (just look at the recent news about an attempted murder of an opposition party member by far-right nationalists), with nothing comparable in Russia.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#133

Post by baybal2 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 8:57 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #125

baybal2 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're aiming to raise the standard of living in China massively Haha > working towards one united and uniform Chinese cultural identity, Haha Ask any middle class Chinese citizen earning his cup of rice. If you really believe that, lots of Chinese grannies are laughing at you now.

Ask any Chinese person whether the quality of life is better now than 5 years ago, and they'll say yes. Ask them if it's better than 10 years ago and they'll say of course. Ask a grandma if it's better than 50 years ago, and she'll think you're insane for even doubting that it's better. People have trains, food, houses, and smartphones as a baseline with many taking international trips. A couple decades ago, China wa…

I can call ten Chinese citizens now, of all walk of life, including non rank holding CPC member, and small time public servants. They will laugh you out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ6UuF85ENA

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#134

Post by andor » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 9:11 AM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #126

hyperman1 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently learned some about the Chinese vision: China aspires to long-term stability first. China had in its past times where the country's internal organization broke down, resulting in famine, ... Lots of people died. As a result, Confucianism has risen: A vision where individual freedom is seen as a danger to that internal organization. Hence, it should be tempered by strict loyalty to the family, with the whole…

When I see Americans talking about confucianism, I want to laught. You got it all wrong. What you say makes no sense to a Chinese not in its literal, or proverbial sense, and talk like these usually get grannies pointing finger to foreigners on the bus, quietly giggling "oh, those foreigners thinking something on China again..."

Can you give a better explanation?

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#135

Post by yung0 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 9:16 AM UTC

politicdone wrote: post #75

ralph84 wrote: post #9

I thought China would wait to take Taiwan first, so they could limit resistance in Taiwan by saying "we'll let you have your own system like we did in Hong Kong." Now that China has reneged on Hong Kong, Taiwan won't believe them.

they would have reneged had they not promulgated a law. the basic law which Britain and China agreed to and produced before 1997 requires article 23 and says matters of defense and foreign affairs are the responsibilities of the central government. it's not hard to consider that matters of national security also responsibilities of the central government. Hong Kong failed to fulfill its duty under the agreement. this…

[flagged]

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#136

Post by yung0 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 9:17 AM UTC

Teknoman117 wrote: post #32

chrischen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically exactly what happened with the last presidential election. The pro-China (conservative) party was heavily favored to win and then suddenly the Hong Kong protests ignited and reminded Taiwanese about China and the pro-USA party (liberals) ended up winning in a landslide.

I hope we (the US) can clean up our act so we can go back to having at least some credibility in the world again. (other than just being rich and having a lot of guns) I'd love for us to be worthy of the praise we get from some places. I can't say that I've been particularly "proud" to say that I'm an American when I started travelling abroad a few years ago. Hard for people to miss though, I sound like a stereotypic…

"at least some credibility in the world again."

Might have to go back about 80 years.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#137

Post by boomboomsubban » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 9:28 AM UTC

obiye wrote: post #52

boomboomsubban wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership - actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world What US leader in the past fifty years has been interested in those ideals? Certainly not Obama, with how he handled events in Yemen, Libya, and Syria, not to mention the assassination program. And his predecessors weren't any bett…

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

>Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals.

How would these "ideals" stop the Chinese action in Hong Kong? Would they lead us to invading China again to force Hong Kong into Western hands, killing god knows how many millions this time?

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#138

Post by boomboomsubban » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 9:35 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #131

koonsolo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia takes care of Russia, China takes care of China, and well, US takes care of US, but acts as if they take care of the world. US foreign policy is meant to improve US. If you don't agree, please give me an example where they wanted to "spread democracy" without any personal gain. And I'm perfectly fine here in EU thank you very much.

You can look at it that way sure. The USA benefits from global stability and trade, but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. In contrast, how many countries have that sort of relationship with Russia or China? You could argue Syria has benefited from Russian patronage, but in reality Russia doesn't care at all about Syria, only it's base…

>but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

How has Iraq benefited? What benefit do the people of Saudi Arabia see from our relationship? How many of the US led South American regime changes have benefitted the populace?

>It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it weakens it's relationships with all it's other partners.

We sell them out constantly. None of those "partners" have other options. Working against the US means most of the world refusing to interact with you, or a regime change on the horizon.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#139

Post by Taurenking » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 9:35 AM UTC

Lio wrote: post #127

twelve40 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So ok, honestly trying to understand this. You are saying a massive country-wide vote was decided based on a couple of bizarre myths ("Romanians and bureaucrats") propagated for some reason by some vaguely motivated groups, and majority (slim, but nonetheless) of the country made a decision on some ridiculous myths that have no basis in reality. What was the motivation for these lie-spreading groups to propagate thos…

The two groups are were Vote Leave and Leave EU. I don't want to derails a discussion about China effectively ending One Country Two Systems further but you can easily search for a description of their tactics if you want. You can also search for news on when the UK government report in to Russian interference in the vote will be released but I wouldn't hold your breath... Now back to what China is doing to the peopl…

>You can also search for news on when the UK government report in to Russian interference in the vote will be released but I wouldn't hold your breath...

Just like in the US, right? ;)

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#140

Post by yorwba » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 10:02 AM UTC

spyckie2 wrote: post #107

hyperman1 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently learned some about the Chinese vision: China aspires to long-term stability first. China had in its past times where the country's internal organization broke down, resulting in famine, ... Lots of people died. As a result, Confucianism has risen: A vision where individual freedom is seen as a danger to that internal organization. Hence, it should be tempered by strict loyalty to the family, with the whole…

There's a theory (known as rice culture theory) that states that rice farming requires cooperation from your neighbors to farm successfully, which solidified a culture of collective values. Wheat, the Western staple, has no such requirements. If you depended on your neighbor's cooperation, the ideals of Confucianism help the village survive. If your neighbors were like the Americans who refuse to put on a mask, your…

Confucius was born in what is now Shandong province, which is far enough north to be not very suitable for rice production. The most important crop is wheat. The southern provinces where rice is more common weren't even part of the Chinese cultural sphere at the time.

The theory doesn't explain anything, since it doesn't even get the agricultural facts right.