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China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

bbc.com

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Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#41

Post by vincvinc »

I know this is not on many people's radar right now, but I strongly believe the rise of Xi's authoritarian nationalism is the biggest story of this century (after global warming).

And this is our generation's "Berlin wall moment". By itself, you might look at this law (after it's published) and not see anything bad. But in the greater context of Chinese policy choices of the last few years, this is nothing less than the signal to end democratic open society in another part of the world.

This is not just about Hong Kong. It's about a small group of powerful people thinking they can create a new order where they can do whatever they want to their own people, their neighbors and the world. They take full advantage of the naivety and openness of our global open system while openly threatening anyone who dares speak out, be it individual Canadians or Australians, the Indian state, a twitch Streamer or a Hong Kong comedian.

So, Is there anything we can do?

some ideas...

- call to boycott the Beijing 2022 Winter olympics

- share the story of the Uyghurs. Today's news include proof that Uyghur women are being sterilized en masse: https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c

- if a company does not list Taiwan as an independent country, they are in effect performing appeasement politics. Increase the cost of doing business with dictators by loudly calling out these companies. Don't be shy, they are getting much more pressure from the Chinese side. It is time to pick a side.

- more importantly, do NOT tolerate any discrimination towards Chinese. It's immoral and increases support for the regime: https://twitter.com/jenjpan/status/1277664711325048832?s=21

... at least, that's what I can come up with in 10 minutes. I'm sure there's much. We need to move the Overton window on this people, the longer we let this go on, the bigger the consequences will be.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#42

Post by boomboomsubban »

arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

> I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership - actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world

What US leader in the past fifty years has been interested in those ideals?

Certainly not Obama, with how he handled events in Yemen, Libya, and Syria, not to mention the assassination program. And his predecessors weren't any better.

This idea that the US has ever been a force for "freedom and democracy" is ridiculous Cold War propaganda. We are an empire, and our concern for Hong Kong has always been about maintaining our interests there.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#43

Post by SubiculumCode »

cambalache wrote: post #30
c3zh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is the protesters are not wanting One Country Two Systems, but Two countries. They are weaving US and UK flags when protesting, telling everyone that they are not Chinese. And the list goes on. I don't think either US or UK can tolerant things like this for more than a year. Update: I can't reply any more because Hacker News thinks I'm posting too much. So please let me thanks you all for replying here. And…

You are being downvoted just because the "zh" in your username. What you say it is actually true and I suppose it is the feeling of a majority of HongKongners, if those wishes are legal or feasible it is another discussion.

The poster was being downvoted because it was pushing what-about-ism deflection to U.S., and because despite what it may seem, the right to protest, fly other flags, etc, remain strong in the U.S., not just one year, but since 1776, although I'm sure there are counter examples of where it failed,it never collapsed. The passing of this law in Hong Kong is not a single failure but evidence of a total collapse the free speech and Democratic leanings from a mainland centralized power.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#44

Post by Symbiote »

c3zh wrote: post #11
arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

The thing is the protesters are not wanting One Country Two Systems, but Two countries. They are weaving US and UK flags when protesting, telling everyone that they are not Chinese. And the list goes on. I don't think either US or UK can tolerant things like this for more than a year. Update: I can't reply any more because Hacker News thinks I'm posting too much. So please let me thanks you all for replying here. And…

Why wouldn't the UK or US tolerate that? And what's wrong with identifying as a Hongkonger?

The UK supports the right of self-determination -- often to its own advantage, as in Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands, but also to Scotland just a few years ago.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#45

Post by bobthepanda »

arcticbull wrote: post #34
c3zh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for responding also. I don't realize that I asked anyone to chime in. I just said what I thought and don't understand why I'm down voted and flagged immediately. TBH what I expected is some discussion (and maybe some down votes, but that's fair if I'm saying something different then others' thought). If this comment is not flagged, I am interested that specifically what autonomy is taken from Hong Kong so t…

The CPC has long meddled in Hong Kong, not least when they disappeared a Chinese billionaire from the penthouse of the Four Seasons [1] who has been 'receiving medical care on the mainland' for 3 years now and 'is very sorry for the trouble he caused'. This is a clear violation of Basic Law and the handover agreement which enshrines a degree of autonomy in Hong Kong and the rule of law . Then there's the case of the…

Also keep in mind that the first strike was probably the annulment of the 1995 LegCo on handover, because it was too open to public influence so the Chinese dissolved it and created a new one in 1998.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#47

Post by popinou »

c3zh wrote: post #11
arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

The thing is the protesters are not wanting One Country Two Systems, but Two countries. They are weaving US and UK flags when protesting, telling everyone that they are not Chinese. And the list goes on. I don't think either US or UK can tolerant things like this for more than a year. Update: I can't reply any more because Hacker News thinks I'm posting too much. So please let me thanks you all for replying here. And…

Many of the protesters want democracy, they will never get it under the CCP government. So in that sense they reject China, which is understandable (since the CCP did a very good job at making party, country and government seem like one entity).

The reaction of brutally suppressing protests and rejecting any form of discussion, as well as creating these laws that will effectively allow them to shut up their opponents under the pretense of "rule of law" is anti-democratic.

The countries you mention are democratic countries and would (in today's world) address the demands of the protestors (not saying accepting all of them and totally giving in), start a dialogue and find a compromise. The protests would have calmed down a long time ago if there had been any kind of de-escalation from the CCP and HK governments.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#48

Post by est »

chrischen wrote: post #12
ralph84 wrote: post #9

I thought China would wait to take Taiwan first, so they could limit resistance in Taiwan by saying "we'll let you have your own system like we did in Hong Kong." Now that China has reneged on Hong Kong, Taiwan won't believe them.

That's basically exactly what happened with the last presidential election. The pro-China (conservative) party was heavily favored to win and then suddenly the Hong Kong protests ignited and reminded Taiwanese about China and the pro-USA party (liberals) ended up winning in a landslide.

> The pro-China (conservative) party was heavily favored to win

Contrary to popular belief, mainland Chinese often hate the pro-Beijing party. Because all they want is more economical gain, rather than political unification. Some radicals even advocate Tsai's presidency and urge her to declare independence so PLA could have a Casus Belli to invade.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#49

Post by xref »

arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

What do you want America to do about it? Hong Kong is Chinese soil.

Let’s flip it, how well would America receive pressure from China because we won’t allow Washington DC equal representation by becoming a state? We’d be pretty irate and tell the CCP to pound sand it’s not their business.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#50

Post by mnm1 »

arcticbull wrote: post #28
c3zh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is the protesters are not wanting One Country Two Systems, but Two countries. They are weaving US and UK flags when protesting, telling everyone that they are not Chinese. And the list goes on. I don't think either US or UK can tolerant things like this for more than a year. Update: I can't reply any more because Hacker News thinks I'm posting too much. So please let me thanks you all for replying here. And…

I can also speak to some of the negativity as you've asked for folks to chime in. The foreign banner waving you're seeing is a response to the perceived and actual loss of freedoms and autonomy guaranteed under Once Country, Two Systems for a minimum of the next 20 years. Beijing is failing to honor the commitments it made to the Hong Kong people, to the UK and to the international community in 1997. The Hong Kong pe…

They're asking for war, for the UK or US to engage China. That is too much to ask. Neither the UK or US has the will or the ability to wage such a war. China wants Hong Kong to be part of it and it will get it just like Russia got Crimea. There are no repercussions to China passing laws and doing as they see fit. They could full out abolish the entire agreement and bring HK under Chinese rule like the mainland if they wanted to. The only way to stop such aggression is war. And that is especially not going to happen as both the UK and US are struggling to get a handle on corona. Agreements and contracts don't mean shit if they can't be enforced and there are no consequences to breaking them. Whatever agreements China and the UK had before don't mean shit anymore because of exactly that.
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