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China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

bbc.com

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Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#101

Post by _-___________-_ »

obiye wrote: post #77
yoav wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is an oppressive surveillance state with regular police murdering minorities, rampant white supremacy, and when not in the middle of catastrophically mishandling a pandemic, has a mass shooting every day of the year. To most people outside the US’s branding sway there’s very little difference between a USA and a Russia or China

Right. That’s why millions of people clamor every year to immigrate to Russia for a better life. Get a grip. The world is not black and white.

> That’s why millions of people clamor every year to immigrate to Russia for a better life

They literally do.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#103

Post by justicezyx »

ksec wrote: post #84
hyperman1 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently learned some about the Chinese vision: China aspires to long-term stability first. China had in its past times where the country's internal organization broke down, resulting in famine, ... Lots of people died. As a result, Confucianism has risen: A vision where individual freedom is seen as a danger to that internal organization. Hence, it should be tempered by strict loyalty to the family, with the whole…

Um.... There were hundred of other thoughts at the time and Confucianism hasn't risen . Confucianism was used as a tool to solidify the power within the Empire. The only thing you will do is kneel and obey. And China aspires to long-term stability first is not about China in itself, but the long term control of power. Which for thousands of years has proved what should now be a famous line, Absolute Power corrupts ab…

I cannot help to ask: what are your background on Chinese history? What do you recommend for an overview on Confucius?

You seem articulate thousands of years of history, and one of the most ancient philosophy and culture system, and it’s impact in so few words that I dare not to challenge - because, as a Chinese myself, I never gained enough understanding on Confucius, and had no capacity to summarize its impact or origin to even fellow Chinese friends.

In the end, I doubt your credential as a competent commentator on such a complicated topic.

But I have no intellectual capacity to either endorse or deny your statement.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#104

Post by baybal2 »

tanilama wrote: post #54
obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

> Russia and China aspire to nothing. Not really. Russia and China aspires to protect their perceived sovereignty. That is probably the most fundamental political ideal. Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'. Last but not least, in a post-COVID world, I can't really say that US is even better for your physical well-being among the choices.

I think, you need to read some history books... preferably Chinese, or Russian.

For most people from the West, the political thinking of people in power here is almost martian.

Both Russia, and China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation, and the occupation it was very savage, and brutal. How do you reconcile your imperial ambitions with understanding that your global superpower polity began its existence as a country of a slave?

How do you live as a big man you tell you are when your driving impulse is a preoccupation with your vulnerabilities, and your identity as a power holder being that of an enemy to your own people, having to server as a tributary, or vassal lord to some Hun/Mongol/Tatar/Manchu khan on your own home soil?

This is the reason of immense insecurity of ego, and character you see there through the history. And that cutthroat, survivalist attitude is also because of that. And the incessant urges to do chest trumping, and prove themselves are also because of that.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#105

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

koonsolo wrote: post #58
obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

Russia takes care of Russia, China takes care of China, and well, US takes care of US, but acts as if they take care of the world. US foreign policy is meant to improve US. If you don't agree, please give me an example where they wanted to "spread democracy" without any personal gain. And I'm perfectly fine here in EU thank you very much.

You can thank us later for fixing that Milosevic problem that the EU should have dealt with itself.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#106

Post by tanilama »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #90
tanilama wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia and China aspire to nothing. Not really. Russia and China aspires to protect their perceived sovereignty. That is probably the most fundamental political ideal. Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'. Last but not least, in a post-COVID world, I can't really say that US is even better for your physical well-being among the choices.

> Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'. Depends what you mean by "treat it as foreign". It's under a different legal system, it has its own currency, and migration between China and Hong Kong is controlled. If you enter China on a single-entry visa, you won't be able to get back in (without a new visa) after visiting Hong Kong.

Definitely not in the sense that China would treat HK issue like anything but its internal issues.

Its action of directly imposing the national security law upon HK only asserts its position, that Chinese government doesn't see there is any need to start negotiation, with anyone.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#107

Post by spyckie2 »

hyperman1 wrote: post #70
obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

I recently learned some about the Chinese vision: China aspires to long-term stability first. China had in its past times where the country's internal organization broke down, resulting in famine, ... Lots of people died. As a result, Confucianism has risen: A vision where individual freedom is seen as a danger to that internal organization. Hence, it should be tempered by strict loyalty to the family, with the whole…

There's a theory (known as rice culture theory) that states that rice farming requires cooperation from your neighbors to farm successfully, which solidified a culture of collective values. Wheat, the Western staple, has no such requirements.

If you depended on your neighbor's cooperation, the ideals of Confucianism help the village survive.

If your neighbors were like the Americans who refuse to put on a mask, your whole village would starve to death within the generation. The theory explains why individualism was suppressed and collective values so uplifted in Chinese culture.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#108

Post by obiye27 »

koonsolo wrote: post #58
obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

Russia takes care of Russia, China takes care of China, and well, US takes care of US, but acts as if they take care of the world. US foreign policy is meant to improve US. If you don't agree, please give me an example where they wanted to "spread democracy" without any personal gain. And I'm perfectly fine here in EU thank you very much.

You didn’t answer the question, which is itself an answer. And as you know, the EU is an empty husk, not a world power. It can’t even agree which countries are members.

If you truly believe the US is only self interested, why get angry about things like the Iraq war? Surely this is normal for a self interested nation to conquer others?

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#109

Post by obiye27 »

freeone3000 wrote: post #97
obiye wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. That’s why millions of people clamor every year to immigrate to Russia for a better life. Get a grip. The world is not black and white.

Here's immigration stats for Russia: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/RUS/russia/immigration... . Of course millions are clamoring to immigrate to Russia for a better life - it's a rich, stable country!

So stable it has multiple ongoing civil conflicts. Come visit Russia, we didn’t shoot down any airliners this year!

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#110

Post by sudhebern »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #105
koonsolo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia takes care of Russia, China takes care of China, and well, US takes care of US, but acts as if they take care of the world. US foreign policy is meant to improve US. If you don't agree, please give me an example where they wanted to "spread democracy" without any personal gain. And I'm perfectly fine here in EU thank you very much.

You can thank us later for fixing that Milosevic problem that the EU should have dealt with itself.

Shh, HN is super pro EU. You're not allowed to point out that nobody cares about them outside of trade.
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